2. The arrogance and the preachings are out but two things American still stand out, and that is the United States is a world super power and that American loyalty to Israel is undiminished. Other things can change but not these two.
3. Hamas is asked to give up terrorism because like the struggles of the blacks of America and South Africa, violence achieves nothing. This is not quite true, at least with other national struggles for freedom and justice. The white Americans themselves fought a war against the British and another war to prevent the break-up of the United States.
5. It is not the Palestinians who choose violence. It was the Jews who violently seized Palestinian land, massacred the Arabs and expelled them from their country. With no one prepared to restrain the Jews, the beleaguered Palestinians had to resort to violence. The world, the United Nations, even fellow Muslims have deserted them.
6. I am against violence but when Israel seized more Palestinian land, build settlements, impose military rule, divide the Palestinians with high walls, barred the Palestinians from using roads built by the Israelis on Palestinian territory, denied the Palestinian right to a homeland, denied the right of return of the expelled Palestinian while upholding the rights of return of Jews who for centuries had been citizens of other countries, labelled Palestinians as terrorists while exonerating the Israelis for the massive attacks on Gaza and other places, left the Palestinians helpless when attacked by the Western-armed Israeli Military Forces, incarcerated thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails, unnecessarily provoke the Palestinians by Sharon’s visit to Jerusalem and many, many more assaults and provocations, is it any wonder that the Palestinians resorted to violence?
7. And now they are asked to stop violence to respect agreements. But what about the Israelis? Shouldn’t they be told to stop their massive violence; shouldn’t they be told to respect agreements and all the UN resolutions, such as those against their setting up settements on Palestinian soil, the occupation of land beyond the UN set boundaries for Israel?
8. Obama stresses America’s strong bond with Israel. It is unbreakable. He recognises the aspiration for a Jewish homeland “rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied”.
9. But what is the tragic history? It is that of European persecution of the Jews, of the regular pogroms culminating in the Holocaust? It is not the doings of the Muslims. Certainly not the doings of the Palestinians.The tragedy was caused by the Europeans through the ages.
10. Obama must know that before there was the United States, the Jews invariably fled to Muslim countries to seek refuge from European persecution. The Muslims did not turn them back. Before Israel there were millions of Jews in Muslim land. Even today quite a few are still there.
11. The Muslims have never been part of the tragic history of the Jews. Why then must they pay the price for the tragedy caused by the Europeans? Had the Europeans offered part of Europe or America for a Jewish state, there would not be the sustained violence that we see in West Asia. But the Europeans expropriated Arab Palestinian land to give to the Jews. Can an injustice in West Asia atone for injustice in Europe? The Muslim Arabs have to pay for the asylum they provided the Jews by having their land taken away to give to the Jews.
12. To make matters worse the Palestinian Arabs, Christians and Muslims, were violently expelled from Palestine. Israel is to be a racist state for Jews only.
13. America accepts people of different races and religious affiliations. But it supports the exclusivity of Israel as a Jewish state.
14. The Palestinians had tried conventional ways of getting back their land. But conventional ways had failed. They have been forsaken by Arab and Muslim countries. Everytime they try on their own they lose more land because the Europeans and Americans gave military support to Israel.
15. It is only after the failure of conventional wars of liberation that they resorted to unconventional attacks. Can they be blamed? Even the tiny mouse when driven into a corner will fight literally with tooth and nail.
16. We can label the methods of the cornered Palestinians terrorism. But they are themselves terrified and those who inflict terror on them cannot be less of a terrorist than them. State terrorism is no less terrifying than terrorism by irregulars. Indeed State terrorism is more terrifying as we witnessed in Nazi Germany and in Cambodia.
17. I will admit that Obama has brought change. It is a relief after eight years of Bush. But there is an area that he cannot change and that is the blind support for Israel. He has no choice. He will become a one-term President of the United States if he does not.
18. For all the talk about democracy in America, the American majority have no power to choose their President or their Government. That power lies with Israel. They can deny this. But that is the truth. The Americans have become the proxy of the Jews. The Americans will pay a heavy price for this.
The Fiat patent fraud. About the Fiat hybrids: the technology double clutch with electric motor between has been stolen by a patent that Fiat Company has never wanted to purchase, but only shamelessly to copy. This hybrid solution will be the basic technology with Chrysler’s electric and hybrid car program. Please give a look in my blog where the “vitality” and boldness of the Fiat planners it appears in all of evidence: http://dualsymbioticelectromechanicalengine.blogspot.com/
If the industries can afford unpunished to copy the ideas and defending it need very expensive trial, to which target need the patents? How to defend the rights of private inventors? How our young people can find intellectual courage if the economic potentates crush the rights of the single ones? Whoever is about to ask for a patent or wants to propose a proper patent to a big firm I suggest to give a look to my experience with the Fiat, to get able to operate with better adroitness. Thanks and good time to everybody. Ulisse Di Bartolomei
The analysis of the speech made by the former prime minister doesn
salam,
maaf kan saya jika mencelah,
bagi saya, jika kerajaan amerika yang kuat perkasa boleh dijinakkan (dijadikan proxy) oleh israel, maka untuk menjinakkan kerajaan lain (termasuk malaysia) adalah kacang bagi israel..
so dimanakah silap nya kerajaan amerika mudah sangat dijadikan proxy oleh israel ?
maaf, cuma bertanya.
terima kasih
Tun,
I appreciate point #16 when you play with the root word terror to put across your point, a bitter sweet poetic justice in my mind.
salam.
You made some interesting points about ‘Lobby,’ Tempered
I’ll let Mearsheimer and Walt answer your points in their own words
//The thesis that America would not support Israel were it not for the Jewish Lobby also ignores the sincere belief of almost all Americans that Israel is a fellow democracy in a very undemocratic and violent part of the world, and that it deserves support as a solid ally.//
‘That Israel is a fellow democracy surrounded by hostile dictatorships cannot account for the current level of aid: there are many democracies around the world, but none receives the same lavish support. The US has overthrown democratic governments in the past and supported dictators when this was thought to advance its interests
Hanan and Tempered
Getting a bit hot under the collar, I see.
Hanan you said, //Since we (you and me) are just 2 against so many, we may have some more dialog power. I think that this is to prove our enemies our true desire for peace.
Since when have we become enemies? I thought we were having a discussion, a bit fiery sometimes to be sure, but a discussion nevertheless.
I like to stick to Jewish, Palestinian and neutral sites as far as possible when making references for the simple reason that doing otherwise will invite the accusation that I only get my information from anti-semitic sites or worse. Some people, as you know, are quite prone to name calling and labelling others. See below.
//You are so determine about the myth of the expelling the Jews by the Romans (70AD). Do you know where the Titus Gate is located?//
Don’t argue with me. Argue with Prof Sand.
//like the Waqf is doing to the archeological evidences under the Temple Mount Mosque, wiping any Jewish evidence for the next history ages
Is that correct or is it the other way round that Israel is trying to undermine the foundations of Al-Aqsa Mosque?
What is the ‘City of David’? Can you please explain, then, why the archeological ‘investigation’ by Israelis in the area of the Temple Mount is being done in secrecy? And why should any digging need to be done at all? Isn’t Jerusalem a “corpus separatum” – separate body to be administered under UN sovereignty as an international city through a UN General Assembly resolution?
Are you discomfited by the views of Jews who don’t hold to the official Israeli line Hanan? Are voices such as those of B’Tselem, Neturei Karta and yes, Noam Chomsky and Shlomo Sand really negligible to Israelis? Aren’t some of these voices also asking for compromise from the Israeli state?
You really want peace? Perhaps you can start the ball rolling by asking your government to stop grabbing Palestinian land, in particular land in East Jerusalem; stop abusing and humiliating Palestinians — men, women and children; and start adhering to international law
//Thank you for enlightening us with a lot of definitions you are not very much familiar with
You’re welcome, Hanan. But I did point out the mistake and made no bones about it.
Tempered, let’s not descend to the level of calling each other names shall we?
You said, //Obviously you are a Holocaust denier, and obtained these assertions from some neo-Nazi site.
I never denied the Holocaust, explicitly or otherwise, and I state categorically now that yes, I believe that for reasons best known to them, Nazis did single out Jews, Roma and the crippled, to be murdered in large numbers during World War 2.
The reason I put the figures on the Jewish population 1939-1949 (obtained from a Christian site if you care to check the link) was to see your reaction to the cynical use of population figures to deny genocide — by Israel in your case. You obviously do not like it if the same is done to you as evidenced by your nine paragraph reply to that single entry at the end of my last comment to you.
//the Iranian shaitan (I mean it since he wants to wipe me off the map so for me he is a shaitan and a big one).//
I see even you swallowed the misinformation provided by MEMRI. In your words, ‘So whether or not MEMRI is maintained by Israelis is irrelevant to their content: those are fully translated actual articles in the Arab media. They cannot be denied as authentic’reliable’ translation’
In the words of an American academic “If Ahmadinejad is a genocidal maniac who just wants to kill Jews, then why are there 20,000 Jews in Iran with a member of parliament in Tehran? Couldn’t he start at home if that was what he is really about?” Juan Cole states clearly that ‘Israel should be wiped off the face of the map’ was not what Ahmadinejad said, and gives good reasons why.
You say that Israel is a ‘sincere democracy’ and that’s why the US is friends with it. Well, apartheid South Africa was democratic too.
Somehow the entire Julius quote at the start of my latest post was eliminated from the post, I think because I put in the wrong brackets! My apologies. Here is the quotation from the Julius article that is missing:
“What is wrong with the book? I can only sketch out the categories of objection. It would take an essay many times the length of this one to fill the categories with all the available examples. But in summary, the authors overstate Israel
There is really only one further topic arising from Dr. Mahathir’s article that needs addressing, in my opinion, especially since many posters to this blog have returned to the claim that Jews/Zionists control America and so it is no democracy at all. I think these suggestions show no understanding either of how the U.S. works as a democracy, or of current events, even if they are repeated by university academics like Walt and Mearsheimer. So here is a comment by a reviewer of the Walt and Mearsheimer book:
Antony Julius, in his article “How the Jewish Conspiracy Myth Still Flourishes” [http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m12&SecId=12&AId=55160&ATypeId=1 ]summarizes the main categories of the errors of Walt & Mearsheimer as follows:
>
He could have added more. For example, the book ignores as if it does not exist the most powerful political lobby in Washington, namely the Oil Lobby/Arab Lobby. Funded both by the major oil companies and by such countries as Saudi Arabia, this lobby has markedly influenced U.S. foreign policy for many decades. It has strong ties to the State Department and the C.I.A., so strong that often when officials retire from either of those two institutions they go to work for the oil companies, or may be recruited from those companies to State Department or C.I.A. employment. On this, see the richly documented and detailed account by Mark Aarons and John Loftus, The Secret War Against the Jews (1997). The State Department in particular has been well-known for its anti-Jewish stand since the 1930s, when it acted to close the door to admission of Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany, and the 40s when it sought to overturn Truman’s support for the establishment of the state of Israel in the U.N. It has remained strongly anti-Israel and even antisemitic up through the 1980s. It is so no longer. In any case the Arab/Oil Lobby can often be criticised as acting against American interests. And a more realistic account of American foreign policy in the Middle East must take its role into account. For example, Israel as a matter of fact was not supportive of plans for the U.S. to go to war in Iraq, as Walt and Mearsheimer claim, but Saudi Arabia and the Oil Lobby certainly were, since that war directly protected them and their interests. Walt and Mearsheimer are therefore in major error in claiming that the U.S. went to war in Iraq because of the Jewish Lobby. This, one of their chief claims and one of their chief criticisms of the “Jewish Lobby,” is simply false.
Additionally, it must be pointed out that Washington DC is filled with lobbies and lobbyists. This is part of the working of the American political system. Lobbies are completely legitimate, and even necessary. The logic of the American political system is to give recognition to as many of the existing interest groups as possible, in as many different forms as possible, which is why any group can set up a lobbyist group or a political party and contest openly at the local, state or national level, the more the merrier. Through this diversification of interests and power, producing a multitude of different associations that both overlap with and conflict with each other in different ways, each group must in the end negotiate with competing others and seek consensus if it is to attract the support of a broad portion of the electorate. Issues are thereby argued through thoroughly, as they could not be in more authoritarian societies. Power is diffused throughout the system in a very ingenious and systematic way, specifically designed to ensure no one power group or interest can overwhelm others and control society. See, on this, The Federalist Papers by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay (1788), in which several of the chief designers of the American Constitution brilliantly present the reasons behind its specific features, on which the new nation of the United States of America was set up. Also see Robert Dahl, Pluralism in the United States: Conflict and Consent (1967), probably the best and clearest exposition on the subject. Another excellent book by Dahl is his Democracy and Its Critics (1989).
The thesis that America would not support Israel were it not for the Jewish Lobby also ignores the sincere belief of almost all Americans that Israel is a fellow democracy in a very undemocratic and violent part of the world, and that it deserves support as a solid ally. Interestingly, the voting record at the U.N. shows that Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and other Middle Eastern countries vote more often against American votes than with them, while Israel steadfastly and sincerely votes with the U.S. So foreign policy influenced by the Arab/Oil Lobby is much more likely to betray genuine American interests and goals than foreign policy supportive of Israel.
And even more deeply, the vast majority of Americans as decent and tolerant Christians strongly support Israel precisely as a Jewish state on its Biblical homeland, a homeland in which for centuries they have been oppressed by often cruel persecutors, and which they have at last created their own state on, again. This support comes not just from evangelical Christians, but also from others. On this, see Paul Charles Merkley, Christian Attitudes towards the State of Israel (2001), and out of many other books, James Parkes, A History of Palestine, From 135 AD to Modern Times (1949) and the same author, End of an Exile: Isael, the Jews and the Gentile World (1982).
The proper title of the book edited by Bostom on jihad is: The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims. I apologize for leaving out the “Non-“.
Assalamualaikum prof_ridcully,
Thank you for enlightening us with a lot of definitions you are not very much familiar with.
Thank you for using the negligible professor Shlomo Sand as your proof of concept. what can be better than to use a Jew against the Jews? Despite this he is still a professor in the Tel Aviv Zionist university. I wonder what would happen to a Muslim professor in a Malaysian university if he would criticize the Muslims or Palestinians and being pro Israeli/Zionist. At the same day he would lose his job (best case) or lose his life (worst case). I can provide you Muslims who are against the Palestinians and criticizing the Muslims
It is increasingly evident from this blog that prof_ridcully is drawing a great deal of his arguments from neo-Nazi websites, by extreme antisemites. Now, a chief characteristic of these sites is that they must base themselves on falsification and distortion of just about every topic relating to Jews that they touch on. The only thing they are really interested in furthering is hatred, not truth at all. Theirs is a pseudo-scholarship.
To create these mythologies they KNOWINGLY falsify their sources. So they begin by lying consciously, even if some of them later come to believe, or to pretend to believe, their own claims. They may read an entirely legitimate source filled with evidence that refutes their claims, but use the source to cherry-pick their “facts” to build up a case that is nowhere to be found in those sources, in fact is contradicted by those very sources, even sometimes on the same page – they omit to mention those passages (as in prof_ridcully’s quotation of the remarks of Yemini on Jewish massacres in Fez and Marrakesh, and as I will show also in his claims about Jewish population figures before and after WWII); and they also maliciously fabricate sources that never existed, for example putting words into the mouths of prominent Jewish leaders that were never said by them (as does the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a favorite text; several instances of non-existent “rabbinic” rulings or “Jewish customs” have been given on this blog), or imply motives to those leaders that were not there and which are sometimes the very opposite of what was actually meant; the results are complete fantasies.
When one of these malicious accusations or fantasies is revealed as false, the neo-Nazi websites are not disturbed: they simply ignore the refutation and move on to another completely new accusation, ad infinitum, and even later repeat the exploded falsehood as if it has not been refuted at all. prof_ridcully shows this himself, for example in regard to his claim that I asserted that Arabs are genetically Nazistic, and again in regard to his claim that Jews have not been persecuted in Muslim lands and in particular had a glorious time in Muslim Spain, which he (along with azal) persists in repeating even after it has been refuted several times. (I really do recommend to both of them, and especially to any less prejudiced reader, Andrew G. Bostom, ed., The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism, which I have already mentioned several times. Azal should also read the same editor’s earlier 755-page collection of Islamic texts and scholarly essays on Jihad, The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Muslims, 2005, a history of veritable horror.) Such dismissal of and indifference to the scholarly truth is very like the Holocaust deniers’ claim that Auschwitz had no gas chambers. Refutations, no matter how pointed or thorough, never register with such types.
So it really is pointless to refute each new slander that issues from prof_ridcully. It would take too long and waste too much time. I have already shown that Jews are not as he supposes them to be, Israel is not as he describes, and Zionism is quite different from what he imagines. That will have to be sufficient. Very unfortunately, and I wish I did not have to say this, nothing that he writes can be relied upon, not even his direct quotes, as we have seen for example in regard to Yemini. It is enough to prove how consistently phony his scholarship is to present a few characteristic instances, which then can stand for all the rest. I have already done this several times.
One last instance of this will therefore be sufficient, the Jewish population figures from 1939 to 1949 that he presents.
First of all, of course, it is obvious he brings up this subject to cover over his glaring failure, as I showed, to demonstrate that Palestinians have suffered genocide, so it is precisely a “red herring,” to change the subject and divert attention to another topic altogether, namely the allegedly “non-existent” genocide of the Jews in WWII. Although I dealt with the actual Jewish population figures, as given by the experts on the subject, in a previous post, nevertheless, I have done a quick Google search and come up with the following illuminating item from Wikipedia, which clarified a number of the odder aspects of prof_ridcully’s statements on the topic, and especially his peculiar use of sources (I put this passage in brackets like this >):
>
So much for Wikipedia. Several questions arise from this passage. First of all, prof_ridcully claimed that the 1949 World Almanac stated that the world Jewish population was 15,713,638. But that is not so. The 1949 edition, according to Wikipedia, stated that the world Jewish population was then 11,266,600 (it also revised upwards the 1939 figure, thus showing a drastic fall of 5.4 million). It was the 1948 World Almanac that gave the incorrect figure. What is more, all the editions of the World Almanac from 1939 to 1948 stated that their figures were based on the “latest available figures,” which, it was said in a small-print footnote, were from 1938. They just basically used the 1938 figures, and confessed as much in their notes, jiggling the numbers slightly up and down each year to make it seem like they accurately reflected strangely little later growth or decline. What this means is, the World Almanac falsified their statistics themselves, and probably only general and continued protests forced them finally to use the already available and true later annual population statistics. I recall decades ago getting the impression that the World Almanac was a highly dubious book when dealing with Jewish topics. So the World Almanac is revealed as an unreliable source, to put it mildly. But that is merely by the way. The bigger question is, if prof_ridcully and/or his source used the American Jewish Year Book for 1939, why did he ignore the later editions and instead choose the World Almanac? And if he/they used the World Almanac, why did he/they refuse to mention the footnote on those very pages for those statistics, or use the figures of any later editions, from 1949 onwards, only stopping at 1948 (“1949”)? The answer is fairly obvious. The ignored yearbooks and Almanac editions completely refuted his/their claims. So he/they simply omitted to include them in the discussion. This, precisely, is pseudo-scholarship, aiming not at truth at all but merely at polemics. Taken together with his numerous other instances of doctored quotes, ad hominen attacks on authors rather than addressing the actual assertions by them, “red herrings” to divert attention from the refutations he cannot answer, and above all his manifest antisemitic malice and preference for neo-Nazi sites that have no respect for truth at all, I think it safe to conclude that nothing he writes can be taken seriously and need detain my attention any further. This is not a gratuitous statement meant to divert attention from his claims, as would be an ad hominem attack, but a conclusion drawn precisely from his claims, which have been proven again and again to be malicious and willful falsehoods. I am sure that in other contexts prof_ridcully may be a fine fellow. But not in this blog.
One last point, unrelated to prof_ridcully. If the population figures for Jews for 1949 was 11,266,600, indicating a decline of over 5.4 million, this practically proves that about 6 million did in fact perish during the Holocaust. That is because outside the Nazi territories the high birthrate amongst Jews enabled them to partly make up the lost numbers in the ten years between 1939 and 1949.
Hello again freedom&peace
Since we are on the subject of sane arguments and closed minds, let’s share this snippet:
[QUOTE]
Founding myths shaken
Is the Bible a historical text? Writing during the early half of the 19th century, the first modern Jewish historians, such as Isaak Markus Jost (1793-1860) and Leopold Zunz (1794-1886), did not think so. They regarded the Old Testament as a theological work reflecting the beliefs of Jewish religious communities after the destruction of the first temple. It was not until the second half of the century that Heinrich Graetz (1817-91) and others developed a
Akum freedom&peace,
Welcome to the discussion. I agree with you that the Palestinian issue is esentially a nationalistic problem but a nationalistic problem that has deep religious roots simply because of the importance and centrality of Occupied Palestine, and especially Baitulmaqdis (Jerusalem), to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Further, Baitullaham (Bethlehem) is also important to Christians who hold it to be the birthplace of Jesus Christ.
The choice of Palestine as the ‘historical’ homeland of the Jews is rooted in Jewish religious beliefs. Indeed, the raison d’etre for mass immigration of European Jews to Palestine in the late 19th to the mid 20th century was the doctrine espoused by the founders of Zionism that Eretz Israel, or Zion, is a land promised to the Jews by God as taught by the Jewish Bible. Zionists assert this belief although there are Jews who think otherwise. These people say that the formation of Israel goes against the Torah that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai.
So yes, discussions on Israel and the Palestinian Occupied Territories are wont to be overshadowed by religious considerations. I’m inclined to believe that any discussion on the Middle East tend to be informed by religion, so much so that most people add a religious dimension to the it almost by reflex, even in the late 20th century. Norman Schwarzkopf, the American commander during the First Gulf War said ‘at last the crusades are over’ at the end of hostilities and, more recently, at the start of his illegal war on Iraq, George Bush also characterised the campaign as a ‘crusade.’
To the casual observer on Palestine-Israel discourse who has been overfed with the usual tripe about ‘anti-semitism’ served up by media influenced by sympathisers of Israel such as CNN and the New York Times, it would seem that what is said here smacks of anti-semitism. I beg to differ. Most of what is said is actually used to rebut the assertions made by Hanan and Tempered. Rebutting pro-Israeli bias does equate to anti-semitism. And if you’d read my earlier comments, anti-semitism is the wrong term to use as Arabs are a semitic people too. The discussion here is mild when one compares them to what is said by pro-Israelis about Palestinians on other blogs. Here is an example of the comments by Israeli shills about Obama’s speech on a UK news site. Unfortunately, although they are also Semites, Palestinian Arabs can’t shout ‘anti-Semites!’ when comments such as those in the Independent’s column are thrown at them.
Yes, it is frustrating indeed to have to rebut people like Hanan and Tempered who use deceit and half-truths to present their case. They dress those with quotations from ‘academics’ and dubious websites to give a veneer of respectability and authority to what they say, which on the surface sound logical and fair thereby hoodwinking well-meaning neutrals who get easily impressed by collegial-style comments. Widen your horizons beyond CNN and the pro-Israeli media and see if people like me have pre-conceived minds, will you freedom&peace?
PS I used a traditional Jewish greeting used for Goyim to greet you. Ask Hanan and Tempered what it means.
Assalamualaikum Tun,
Mohon izin membuat komen di sini.
Dear Bloggers especially Hanan, Tempered and freedom&peace,
Assalamualaikum, Shalom Aleichem,
I am tempted to put my comment after reading “freedom&peace” remark on the manners of the bloggers here.
I hope you would continue to read this website and will find, out of the senseless nonsense here will emerge some sense. Insha Allah.
You see freedom&peace, Muslims all over the world are very shocked and angry by what happend in Gaza during the recent months. None could forgive what the Israeli Govt was doing. Over 1500 people died in this exercise. These are real people. How many Israeli’s casualities? But Muslims are helpless to do anything.
The sentiments expressed in this Blog are just a reaction to this. At least all the anger is expressed as virtual bashing, and no one is exploding physically. On the street in Malaysia, (if you ever come here freedom&peace), people are peaceful. Most Malaysians are unaware of the conflict in the Mid-East.
I must praise Hanan for his bravery, to expose himself to a community of his “enemy”. But are these really his enemy? Think again?
He is being given the chance to voice himself and represent the Zionist group here. Tun Mahathir even made special replies to him. This is truly an honor given to an ordinary Jew from Israel by a former head of Government. If an ordinary Muslim is to write a letter to an Israeli Prime Minister, would he be entertained?
Think again.
But again Hanan is on his lonely battle to remove the bias which clouded the Jewish community as seen by Muslims. I hope he will continue and succeed. I hope many others like him (now tempered has joined) to come forward to have a bashful peace dialogs here with the Muslims.
Mostly the Muslims here are Tun Mahathir’s admirers who naturally will defend him. But amongst them, there are many rational people who have put up their sounds arguments.
Hanan, tempered and freedom&peace are biased with their opinions. Their bias comes from the western media which demonised Islam.
Islam is a peaceful religion. I would urge Hanan, tempered and freedom&peace to read the
Constitution of Medina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina
and the Covenant of Umar I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Umariyya_Covenant
As for some Muslims here who demonise the Jews/Zionists to the extent of not wanting to greet/receive salam from the Jews, please read the following article. You will find that, it is obligatory for Muslims to reply when a Jew or Christian or People of the Book give salam to you.
I hope somedays we can clarify the bias from both sides. I hope somehow this blog will be contributing to this effort. I hope somedays, Muslims, Christians and Jews will be one big happy family and children of Prophet Ibrahim (Alihissalam).
Happy Blogging, wassalam.
=============
Printed From:
http://www.madeenah .com/article. cfm?id=1186
Returning the ‘Salaam’ to non-Muslims
– Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz
Reference:
Fataawa Nur ‘ala ad Darb
Category:
Contemporary Issues
If a non-Muslim extends the ‘Salaam’ to a believer, should he return the ‘Salaam’?
Yes, if a non-Muslims extends the greeting then [the believer] should return it. The Prophet, ص
prof_ridcully, you continue to raise all sorts of “red herrings,” but still actually never deal with the issues nor my refutations of your specific claims regarding Israel. Obviously you are unable to.
For example, it is not really a refutation of my point that Palestinian population statistics show no genocide has occurred, simply as a matter of fact, to talk about Jewish population figures before and after WWII. That is really weird. Obviously you are a Holocaust denier, and obtained these assertions from some neo-Nazi site. But anyway, even if the Jewish population figures that you give were true, and they are not, they prove nothing about the obviously flourishing, not genocide-afflicted, Palestinian population growth.
As for the alleged Jewish population figures themselves, I really do not have the time to go into this more fully at present, but merely point out that the World Almanac is not really an authoritative source, old boy, but the American Jewish Year Books, whose figures for 1939 you accept as valid, show very different figures for all subsequent years. In fact, why don’t you even mention them for the post-war period: is it because you know very well that they show a drastic drop in world Jewish population? If they are reliable for 1939, why aren’t they reliable for 1948, 1955, 1960, 70, etc.? E.g., I happen to have the 1950 volume, which presents the latest figures then available to the demographic scholars writing on the World Jewish Population for that issue, for the year 1948, and those figures are: total Jewish population around the world was 11,303,350, of which 3,505,800, 31% were in Europe. But before the Second World War, the figures for Europe were over 9,480,000. These statistics are generally in line with the research by the YIVO Institute of Lithuania and Poland back in 1939 itself. Their encyclopedic 3-volume work, Yidn, published between 1939 and 1942 (the last volumes were published in the U.S.), translated into English as The Jewish People: Past and Present (1948), presents an article on Jewish world population in Vol. 1, by Arthur Ruppin, probably the leading Jewish demographer of that generation. He gives as the total “present” population of Jews in Europe in 1939 as 9,462,000, and the world Jewish population as 16,648,000. However, he grants that many Jews in central and eastern Europe, including the Soviet Union, had avoided putting Jewish background identity on their official papers or records, because of the intense antisemitism there for decades that badly disadvantaged Jews in employment, education, and so on, so that the total number of Jews may well have been much higher. He wished to be very rigorous and cautious in his figures. But I have read quite credible figures of 17 and a half million for Jews in 1939. At the Wannsee Conference the Nazis held in January 1942 to coordinate the “Final Solution,” Adolf Eichmann presented the best figures on Europe’s Jewish population available to German scientists: the figure presented was “over 11,000,000.” This would put the world Jewish population at well over 17 million, since nearly 5 million were in the U.S. and there were many Jews elsewhere too. However, let us accept the more cautious and conservative numbers. There was such a precipitate drop in Jewish population that only something over 3 million of known Jews were left in Europe after the war.
As you can ascertain through any reputable source (not evidently to include the World Almanac!), the present world Jewish population is in the high 13 millions or lower 14 millions, depending on the source. Jews have not quite made up their pre-WWII numbers after the Holocaust. After all, one-third of world Jewry was wiped out, two-thirds of European Jewry.
The Zionists did not collaborate with the Nazis in sending Jews to the death camps. Leaders in the Yishuv did however in the 30s, and even very occasionally during WWII, try to negotiate with the Nazis with the aim of coordinating the flight of Jews from Nazi Germany to Mandate Palestine. They hated the Nazis and everything they stood for, but wanted to save as many Jews as possible. That, prof_ridcully, was the only involvement of the Zionist movement with the Nazis, and it was wholly understandable and reasonable. Neo-Nazis, whom you seem to draw a lot of inspiration from, have tried for decades to make all this seem sinister. It was not, and is not. It may have been largely futile, but the aim was commendable.
By the way, don’t you find sinister the active endorsement of Nazi genocide by the then-leader of the Palestinians, Haj Amin el-Hussaini, including even the sponsorship of two Waffen SS divisions of Muslims that joined the Nazi campaigns, and the issuing of fatwas commanding Muslims to fight with the Nazis against the democracies? Isn’t that a little sinister?
I am glad that you are getting a laugh out of my reference to an article on MEMRI; humor has been lacking on this blog. Your comment is pretty laughable too. MEMRI simply publishes in English the articles on a wide variety of topics that appear in the Arabic Middle Eastern media, or presents videos of TV programs, etc.. Most of these items are from the mainstream, government-approved media, and/or are by leading religious authorities in the Middle East and approved cultural commentators – obviously, non-mainstream voices would have a hard time getting published, or even surviving. So whether or not MEMRI is maintained by Israelis is irrelevant to their content: those are fully translated actual articles in the Arab media. They cannot be denied as authentic. There is no editing of them, as Arabs themselves testify. There is no other similar source for the Arab media in English. MEMRI even specifically tries to publish any more moderate and reasonable, non-fanatical items, anything indicating liberal or reform tendencies – the difficulty, of course, is that there are many less of such items than of extremist and even what seems almost insane ranting and demonizing, not just of Israel, but of the entire Western world, democracy itself, etc. Moreover, this corresponds to the results of opinion polls in the Arab world, showing for example that a great majority believe that 9-11 was pulled off by the CIA and Mossad, even though videos from Osama bin Laden boast of al-Qaeda responsibility and even contain “martyr”-presentations from the perpetrators, filmed before their terrorist acts. Truth is irrelevant in the never-never land of the Middle East.
So have your good laugh. You need it. So do I. So I laugh at your remarks about ad hominem attacks. After I showed that Shahak was unreliable in specific detail, I concluded by saying that he was unreliable. That is not ad hominem, which as I defined it before consists of REPLACING treatment of the disagreeable facts with mere attacks against the person who gives them. Unreliability and even malice is what his own writing shows, and I drew the inevitable conclusion from the facts I presented.
I wonder what new “red herrings” you are going to serve up next, prof_ridcully? The topic, remember, is the Arab-Israeli conflict, not anything else.
Thank you very much, freedom&peace, for your comments. Frankly, I can only agree with you about the likelihood of any change in most of my blog respondents; they really are too far gone, and in fact, for them to admit even a small error in the beliefs, or flaw in the practices, of their side might threaten a wholesale collapse of their mental edifice, shaky as it is already in their own minds, so they are driven all the more to demonize the other side as a form of exorcism of doubt. That is the process behind the double standards and demonizations. The more they create a mythological cartoon monster out of Israel, Zionism, the Jews, etc., the easier it is to ignore or rather to excuse the actual blatantly dubious behaviors on their own side: e.g., that the Arab enemies of Israel have very frequently threatened Israel with genocide, often publicly and at the top of their lungs, and tried on too many occasions to act it out, leads them to pretend that Israel “secretly” has similar goals and the poor Arabs merely must defend themselves from that supposed genocidal threat – by committing genocide themselves. Self-criticism is externalizing into the evil “Other,” and then is called “bad,” thus excusing their own actual bad behavior.
But perhaps some exposure to the other side of things might open a few minds up a bit. Anyway, thank you very much for your encouragement: I write as much for you as for them.
And, in conclusion, I thank Dr. Mahathir for his patience too.
Dear Hanan and tempered,
I just want to let you know that you are not alone. I had stumbled across this blog due to an interest in Malaysia and was shocked in disbelief at those blatant anti-Semitic views propagated here.
I am neither Jewish nor Muslim, and i can tell you that from an outside perspective the core problem here seems to be religious ideology which stands in the way of peace. And not only that, it seems to completely suffocate logical thought, because all your perfectly sane arguments seem to bounce off those preconceived minds like a ball bounces off a wall. It just seems hopeless! This must be so frustrating for you guys and i can just admire your patience.
I wish you both the best of luck and lots of courage in your attempts to establish a constructive dialogue!
Peace!
azul, I will try to keep this brief.
1. It may be “simply very, very obvious” to you that Israel is wrong. I am not surprised. But that is because you only read and learn a cartoon view of the whole issue, amazingly distorted and presented solely from one side, the one demonizing Israel and excusing every atrocity of the Palestinians beamed at you from Hamas propaganda manipulators, Arab media, and Muslim TV and newspapers. I am very sorry to say that much of what you have learned, and that seems obvious to you, is fiction. It is simply false. You have been completely hoodwinked, and you certainly cannot say you are an independent observer, because you are dependent on a severely, even pathologically biased set of information sources. Just for an example, a lot of the videos shown on al-Jazeera television (their news editor is a Palestinian) purporting to show real-life events in Gaza during the recent war there were actually acted out by Hamas-controlled and -directed actors. Hamas war headquarters was even located in the basement of the very Shifra Hospital that showed supposed casualties (thus using human shields and even a whole hospital as their protection from Israeli retaliation), and they supervised all camera-men and reporters – who naturally had to obey them without question. You might learn of the truth if you consulted for example Mitchell G. Bard, Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict. This is available on-line for free access at http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/cover.html
Most of the questions you ask about are answered there.
2. As for why Bard should be objective and accurate when the Palestinian side is not, you might take into consideration that as a lively and very open democracy, with plenty of give-and-take on every topic, Israel allows full examination of every issue with the result that outright myths can be asserted (for example by people like Jeff Halper in the YouTube video you recommended), but due to the open criticism that meets them, reflecting the actual experience of the entire population, only the most extremely ideological and one-sided, like Halper, can still hold to such nonsense. The vast majority see it for the falsehood that it is. Naturally Halper must damn Israeli democracy itself, and all other mainstream Jews, because he will never persuade them that black is white and vice versa. Actually, it is a proof of Israeli democracy and decency that people like Halper can live there safely while openly demonizing the entire society and freely teaching this and siding with Israel’s enemies. He refutes his own claims, simply by being there. This is also an impressive proof that Jewish culture is against violence, even in regard to traitors like Halper. They can criticise as much as they want, safely.
3. On the other hand, the Palestinian society is not a democracy, and is not open to free and secure self-criticism at all. You will only get approved propaganda from them, carefully manufactured lies. Even the major world news organizations know that their reporters might lose all access to Palestinian areas, or worse, “go missing in action” if they dared to contradict Hamas propaganda or fail to distribute it as news. Terrorist groups, whether Hamas or Fatah, rule in authoritarian fashion. The one open election that was held in the Gaza Strip after Israel fully withdrew was won by Hamas, which then went about knee-capping Fatah and other opponents and critics, burning them alive or throwing them off high buildings.
4. A good example of the nonsense that results is your view that somehow Israel is proven at fault because of the lopsided statistics of the Gaza conflict: it lost only 8 soldiers in its recent incursion there while Hamas lost around 600 of its militants, with another 320 killed who were “unaffliliated” (who may be Hamas, but information is lacking), and the rest were 309 civilians (of whom 189 were children under the age of 15 – of course, Hamas often uses children in its terrorist operations and in battle, and also forces them to surround their militants as human shields; often children are amongst the dead when there is a “work accident” in bomb factories, so these children include some involved in conflict situations). Lopsided statistics do not prove fault nor blamelessness, they only indicate which side fought most effectively. Not all groups who lose battles are innocent victims. Didn’t you know that? Palestinians are experts at vicious but futile self-destructive violence; I thought the whole world knew that. They are their own worst enemies, not just in regard to Israel, but also in regard to Jordan (where they were finally driven out in 1971 with enormous loss of life), Lebanon (where they started the horrible civil war of the 70s and where the P.L.O. was driven out in 1981-2), in Kuwait (where they were driven out in 1991), etc. If only they cultivated the arts of peace as assiduously as they cultivated the arts of atrocity, resentment and hatred, they would do wonderfully, and the whole world would be better off.
As mentioned in an earlier post, more Palestinians have been murdered by each other in their interminable gang wars and internal strife, and by other Arabs in Jordan and Lebanon, than by Israelis, and the low figures of Palestinian deaths in conflict situations with Israel, most of them coming in urban areas and with use of human shields, is much much lower than in similar war situations between Arab nations or even Western nations fighting the bad guys, as in the Allied nations fighting the Nazis in WWII, in the Balkan conflict against Serbia (to protect Muslims, be it noted), or in Iraq and Afghanistan.
5. You err in supposing that the land that was assigned to Israel by the U.N. was Arab land. The Ottoman Empire was no more, and there never has been a state of “Palestine” in that region during the whole 1,400 years of Muslim rule. About 95% of the inhabitants of the U.N.-designated Jewish stae were Jews. They stole nothing and dispossessed no-one. They had gotten that land entirely peaceably and legally. Most of it, by the way, was uninhabited and ownerless desert, including the Negev Desert. The Arab problem was not even that Jews owned that land. It was that they insisted on ruling themselves on it, and establishing their own state and government. That, plus deep racism and love of violence, is why the extremists under Haj Amin el-Hussaini wanted to murder them all, and steal what they had built. It is important to know that not all Palestinians were of like mind. E.g., both King Abdullah of Jordan, and King Faisal of Syria, were glad that the Jews were there and hoped that they would bring prosperity to the whole region, and they said so publicly and often, including to the League of Nations considering the foundation of a Jewish homeland and state. They were certainly among the Arab spokespeople who were consulted, to answer your question about Arab representatives (there were no “Palestinian” representatives since even most Arabs of Mandate Palestine rejected the very idea of a separate Palestinian state: even Haj Amin el-Hussaini was fighting for a Greater Syria). But Faisal died before the establishment of the State of Israel, and Abdullah was assassinated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini’s men, as were all other prominent Palestinians willing to live in peace with Jews.
6. Keep in mind that Israel has offered peace from even before it was born, i.e., in the lead-up to the establishment of the State of Israel, in 1947-48, very publicly after the 1967 war, in 1979 when President Anwar Sadat met with Prime Minister Menachem Begin and an Egypt-Israel peace treaty was hammered out and signed, in the 1990s with King Hussain of Jordan, and, directly with the Palestinians in 1993-4 in the Oslo Accords and especially in the Camp David talks of 2000. Israel is still seeking peace. Too bad the other side refuses, or actively sabotages negotiations when they get too far advanced, for example the Intifada was an Arafat-managed sabotage of the Camp David peace offer, and broke out right after those talks. It is alleged that it was precipitated by the “provocation” of Ariel Sharon walking on the plaza of the Temple Mount, which is after all in Israel, and Israeli politicians, ordinary Israelis, and even foreign tourists had been walking there ever since 1967 anyway, but then it is hard to explain why it was that the Intifada actually started the day before, and even more why it continued for years afterward!
7. As for the Banu Qurayza, you miss the point (I suspect quite purposely). The Jews of Medina were not consulted about the takeover of their land and themselves by the two Arab tribes that conquered Medina, and they were also not consulted about the leader those tribes appointed to rule in Medina, namely Muhammad. Basically, they dissented from the whole take-over. They may have been coerced into submission, but they did not consent to it. In their peaceable civil disobedience, at first, and finally in seeking freedom from Muhammad and his followers, they were not being disloyal to their leader, nor traitors, as you claim, but resistance fighters. Do you get it? Resistance fighters. Their land had been taken over, and they were brutally ruled, and they did not like it. To add insult to injury, Muhammad even claimed false things about their own religion, claiming to know it better than they did themselves and urging them to betray it and join his religion instead. Naturally Muslims claimed that Jews should happily submit to Muslim rule, but as far as the Jews of Medina were concerned the truth was they were oppressed captives, and this truth was proven by the confiscation of their property, the raping of their women, and their expulsion, tribe after tribe. The terms of the expulsions were less severe at first, when Muhammad faced a Jewish population that was the majority of the inhabitants of Medina. But each following expulsion was more severe, and when there was only one last Jewish tribe there, Muhammad allowed himself full freedom to kill all the men and take all the virginal women and children. Not very nice. Claiming the Banu Qurazya dictated the terms of their own execution is rubbish, true “blaming the victim”. The supposed “Jewish” custom of killing all men and taking all women is no “Jewish” custom at all. As for Muhammad’s later horrible behavior to the Khaybar Jews, who had done nothing to him and his people at all, the less said, the better. On the further details of the Banu Qurazya, I direct you to a very interesting and full article on it, by a Muslim expert in the sources, at: http://islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Muhammad-Killing-Jews-of-Banu-Quraiza-and-Khaybar.htm
Firstly I must thank Tun for saying it as it is. No use going into history or old testament. The fact is that the Muslims are not against the jews but against a Zionist state “Israel”
The Jews and Palestinians were brothers and why is it they are finding it so difficult to live in peace. Again it is the West that played a negative part again. Firstly jews were persecuted. The the “Balfour Declaration” created the state of Israel in the midst of Palestine. There is an intention to create the state of Israel in Uganda but it was not agreable. I think it should be created in the continent of Australia owned by the Brits. It can be in Western Australia or the Northern Territory.
The world will be at peace to-day.
Another question can Israel exist without the support of the USA?
Tempered,
You said, It is accepted generally that Ad hominem (personal) attacks against the authors of articles are invalid ways of refuting their statements,
and then in a later comment you said, ….so that Shahak could avoid any disproof or lawsuit in an Israeli court for slander. This I am sorry to say is typical of Shahak.
So, which is it tempered? Is it OK or not OK to use Ad hominem attacks? Or is it just OK for *you* and those who agree with you to use Ad hominem attacks but not others who happen to disagree with you?
But don’t worry too much about that. I’m just trying to point out the pattern of your line of argument. Labelling others and nonchalantly using what you characterise as faulty yourself when it suits you.
It is laughable that you try to pass MEMRI as a neutral, and thus reliable, source of information. MEMRI is a tool of the Israeli state that purports to be a translation service and a “research institute” which specialises in translating portions of the Arabic media into English. MEMRI is run by a retired Israeli Intelligence agent and it frequently skews what is said in the Arabic media.
But don’t take my word for it. Read what the UK Guardian and Prof Juan Cole have to say about it. You can also read about it here: [http://www.factsontheground.co.uk/2007/05/14/memri-and-its-mickey-mouse-translation/]
You mentioned your great enemy, the infamous Nazi Adolf Eichmann. Zionists collaborated with Eischmann and you know it.
Isn’t it true that Eichmann visited Palestine in 1937 as the guest of the Zionists? And that he met Feivel Polkes, a Zionist operative, whom Eichmann described as a “leading Haganah functionary.”?
And isn’t it true “that after the Nuremberg Anti-Jewish Race Laws were enacted in 1935, that there were only two flags that were permitted to be displayed in all of Nazi Germany. One was Hitler
Hi there Tempered,
I see that I have devoted too much space to prof_ridcully. So I must be short with Mr. azal. Briefly, I disbelieve the entire account of the Banu Qurayza that you give. After all, it comes only from their murderers. Their own view of things is conspicuously absent and we can be sure it would be dramatically different. But I can say this. You accuse “the Jews” of dispossessing the Palestinian Arabs of their own land, expelling and killing them. This is certainly not true, but let us suppose that it was, and that this is a criminal behavior that cannot be excused or justified. So any kind of violent resistance, such as outright genocidal terrorism against all Jews by the Palestinians, is entirely just and good, you say, not even real terrorism at all. Now tell me what Muhammad and the two Arab tribes that invited him into Medina to rule over the Jews with him did to the Jews under them. Did those Arab tribesmen invade Medina and take it over? Did they, and Muhammad too, force themselves on the Jews without their consent, dispossess them from their land, and expell and kill them? Were not the Jews of Medina therefore justified in fighting Muhammad and his Arab followers to the death? According to you, of course they were, just as the Palestinian Arabs are justified in resisting to the death, murdering all the while. And was Muhammad and his Arab followers justified in expelling them and wiping out the Banu Qurayza? According to you, of course they were not, just as the Israelis were not justified despite the constant terrorism and murder of their own people by the Arabs. Fine and dandy: the real conclusion is that you do not believe your own assertions; you only mean to delegitimize and demonize Jews.
The only problem with your argument is that the Arab Muslims in Madinah did not oppress the Jews. They didn’t take their lands (see the Jews have their own village to be conquered in the Bani Quraizah’s history). They didn’t grab the Jews’ power in economy.
Hey, after all, there were many prophets who were Jews too right? Why should the Muslims oppress the Jews then? Absolutely no reason at all.
But on the other hand, I could say a lot about what the Israelians are currently doing to the Palestinians, such as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4qgYW_5568
But then again, you will only choose what you choose to believe and disbelief anything that is of not what you belief. But hey, you can prove me wrong, all the better.
That is at the root of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and until that disappears that conflict will remain. This comment can also apply to selsis’s post. The root problem in the Middle East is the refusal of Arab countries to admit the independent existence of a non-Arab country in their midst: this is an offense against their “honor,” to be expiated by murder. Any non-Arab country would be so treated, so it has nothing in itself to do with Jews. If they were Christians, Baha’is, Hindus, or transcendental angels, the same endless defamations and attacks would continue. That it is a Jewish state only makes it worse, however, due to traditional Arab views that Jews were on the lowest rung of Muslim society, weak and defenseless, and should remain forever so.
This is just like what I said in my previous post. Do you expect them to accept a country which is made from their own land without they giving the land willingly? Of course not.
Then there is the religious aspect: according to Muslim teachings, once a land has been conquered by Muslims, they have a permanent God-given right to rule it forever, and to take it back through jihad if it is lost to them. Dhimmis do not have any right to rule themselves. There is really nothing Israel can do to appease such totalitarian negative beliefs. It can only defend itself and outlast them, and it will. Egypt has made a lasting peace with Israel, and so has Jordan, so it can be done, and the sky did not fall down. The rest of the Muslim world will have to accept something similar. Israel can wait for that part of the world to modernize and reform itself; it will take a good while, but it will happen.
To tell you the truth, I’ve never heard that teaching in Islam. But then again I’m not really “alim” y’know.
But I think that statement is true not for just religion, but for any country. If you’re a citizen of a country.. And when some outside force comes in, attacks and conquers your country, of course you are obligated to fight back for your country and retain the land again. Not running away like cowards. If another country conquers some lands in your country, you’d fight back for your country too I assume?
Dhimmis don’t have any right to rule themselves? LOL. In those countries the Dhimmis are usually minorities. Of course, usually the majority would rule. Which is true for any country in the world I believe, including USA.. and Israel (no muslim ruler correct?). And, the Dhimmis have always been given their own rights in Muslim history, long, long before the black people in European/English countries were “stopped from being oppressed, slaves and such”.
Can I request that you stop trying to manipulate things and history?
I am afraid, azal, to take the last remaining point, that your British-Malay example is irrelevant and inapplicable. That is another conflict and history entirely, quite unrelated to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. And your attempt to turn entirely legal, voluntary and legitimate purchase of land by individuals into some sort of international crime or sinister underhanded plot is nonsensical. No coercion was involved: it could not be, when we are talking about transactions occurring under close Ottoman Muslim supervision that disadvantaged Jews in general and certainly tended to coerce them rather than Arabs. Much the same is true under the British Mandate. It might occur to you that to prohibit any Jewish land purchases while allowing all others is simply racism, pure and simple.
The reason I gave you that example is because I thought you were a Malaysian too. I thought it should occur to you that what happened in Palestine was similar, though obviously not the same, to what happened in Malaysia. Sorry if you did not see the point I was trying to make.
As you can see Malaysians were also controlled by outside forces too before, so we do know some of the tactics outside forces used to gain control of our country. And from my, and maybe some of Malaysians’ PoV, most of Israel’s actions (like buying lands until it could form a country) are similar to the method British used to gain control of Malaysia (buy/get lands here and there, and if they don’t want to, side with the opposing party and defeat ’em).
And the way they refuted? Yeah, “We bought the lands fair and square, fool.”
Btw are you a Jewish or Malaysian?
Secondly, I notice in azal’s account of the Banu Qurazya a curious but telling thing: those victims are made out to be the one’s who demand their own murder. They alone are blamed for their own deaths: they are portrayed as in effect ordering their vacuous zombi-like murderers, who can then be clean of their own sin. The Banu Qurazya rabbi, no less (just like Shahak’s rabbi and just as fictional, since there are no Rabbinic precedents to justify such a directive), supposedly makes a ruling that such a people who are in the Banu Qurazya situation, conquered and pleading for mercy, should have all their males exterminated, and their women and children taken as booty, slaves. And supposedly their actual non-Jewish murderers therefore had to obey this alleged Rabbinic ruling, and bore no personal responsibility for their actions! This, frankly, is rather too obviously crafted to absolve the murderers of their guilt for their really quite indefensible war crime. After all, their captors were not Jews and were hardly bound by Rabbinic decrees. Quite the contrary. The guilt of their massacre remains their own. As I wrote before, nothing in the final analysis removes personal moral responsibility for actions one does, not the group around one, and certainly not one’s own blaming the victims for one’s own criminal acts.
You’re talking like the Arab Muslims were the bad guys here. It’s like you’ve totally forgotten the point that…
Fact: The Jews (Bani Quraizah) Are Traitors!
Looks like I failed to describe the severity of the Jews’, bani Quraizah’s treachery in the Battle of the Trenches.
(Oh and btw there are Jews outside Madinah that helped to attack Madinah too.. The Jews that were previously expelled from Madinah. Wow, way to go Jews)
Army Strength attacking Madinah: 10,000
Madinah’s Defending Army Strength: 3,000
And Madinah were besieged for 2 weeks.
Do you know how that feels? Unable to access the outside world, no access to food, with a huge army might breakthrough anytime, killing ALL OF THE MADINAH CITIZENS?
And suddenly, one bani whom you trusts, suddenly betrays you? Attacked you, and wanted to let attackers inside killing you all?
The only reason why Madinah were saved was because of the trench, and being able to implement distrusts between bani Quraizah and the attacking army.
It is already amazing that Muhammad didn’t simply order Madinah’s army to swoop in and kill all of bani Quraizah (oh and btw they were also besieged for weeks, they got their own punishment for that).
He, in fact, gave them a choice, be very, very lenient with them. (I’m pretty sure all other kings would have immediately ordered all of them, including the children and women, to be killed).
To tell you the truth I certainly don’t understand WTF were the Jews, Bani Quraizah, doing either. If they just chose their fate to be decided “Islamiccally”, they would have JUST been expelled.
But hey they chose not to. They chose to take a chance and have their fate decided by their own customs. Even the arbitor that would determine their fate were their ally that were chosen by THEMSELVES.
Too bad, even the Jews’ own custom says that the men should be killed, women and children to be sold as slaves. The scary thing is, if they did took down Madinah that time, THAT would have happpened to the Muslims.
Of course, they don’t want to be killed. But, did they really expect anything less? Even expulsion was actually very lenient with the degree of threat they’ve done to Madinah.
Were they that arrogant not to accept punishment thru Islamic law (and would have gotten away scot free, just being expelled), or did they actually thought that they’ll get an even more lenient punishment outside Islam?
———————–
Some points:
1. Why do you say that Jews are “weak”? This is VERY OBVIOUSLY not the case. In the current situation, yes, Jews/Israel are actually pretty strong. Israel could probably wipe out Malaysia.
For the history, from what you say, look, they can even fend off a whole army of Arabs, even gaining territories to boot. Surely they ain’t weak. Or the Arabs sucked.
2. You always say that Arabs hate Jews for no reason. There are reasons why they hate Jews, not just because Jews have bad rep historically, but it is largely because of Jews’ action of invading their territory (even if you deny that you’re invading, THEY think you are invading).
3. You said the Jews want peace. That’s really, really good if Israel wants peace. But, your actions such as
a. bombing Palestine,
b. killing them,
c. besiege them for years and years,
d. don’t allow them to go to the outside world,
e. building walls that divide their country without their consent,
f. always refused peace agreements
g. didn’t follow the ceasefire agreement,
h. Killing 1000s of them openly even when the world is against you
i. not agreeing to stop the “natural progression” of the Jews places in Palestine as part of the peace agreement
and lots more..
doesn’t really help the Israel/Jews reputation of “wanting peace” y’know.. really.
4. Arab countries don’t want to help but most money to “help” palestinians came from US/Israel. Well, that may be true.. But you can’t really hide the big fact that if some Arab countries did try to help Palestinians and oppose Israel, US would label them as terrorists and use that excuse to wipe that country off, like Iraq. Yeah, they should just say “**** it” and went to help, but hey you can’t blame them.
5. About Jews buying land, I certainly can’t comment about it, because it was “legit”, whether manipulated or not (just like how British controlled Malaysia huh). Basically it comes down to the “stupidity” of the Palestinians who sold the land to the Jews, a lot, and Jews (and anybody would), of course, took advantage of that.
That’s why there are outrage when ex-MB of Perak were freely giving away full rights of land to non-Melayus, Melayus wouldn’t want to end up like what happened before independence, or like Palestinians, but hey that’s another story.
6. And you say US and Israel are helping Palestinians. LOL. More like propaganda to me. “We’re killing you guys but hey here’s some food though it’s obviously not enough for all of you. And no no other people wants to help you because we don’t allow them.” LOL LOL LOL.
Simpler way: Just let Palestinians out, take down the walls, give them their rights of land, get out and let them handle their own economy.. Easier right?
7. To Hanan too, you guys label us all as very biased. But hey you can’t blame us. As an independent observer (not a Jew, not a Palestinian, but a Malaysian Muslim), it is simply very, very obvious that Israel are wrong.
As for me, the ones who were very, very biased are you. Wow, you still side with a side that kills 1000s people and said that’s because the other side killed 8 of you? And they killed 8 of you because you were oppressing them in their own land for years and years and years (and killed lots more than 8 of them, probably 1000s too, during those years, directly and indirectly)?
You must be very, very, verrryy biased to think that the side that killed 1000s of people were righteous.
———————–
Okay, other than that, you did not elaborate this key point I made before.
To make it simple for you, just answer this question with a simple “Yes” or “No”, no elaboration necessary. You can even ignore all my other questions.
As for the UN resolution where Jews will get some land, were there any Palestinian representative during the discussion for the resolution?
And if there were, were they just puppets being used by Israel?
Okay.. That’s all. Have a nice day! =)
Dengan izin Tun..Terimakasih..
[[Dear enemy Hanan and Tempered]]
[[Your effort to convince the biased,]]
Wek..wek..Hyperemesis Gravidarum..
[[even extremely biased audience in this blog is to be admired]]
Remembered Tempered..Only them who support our ideology is the one not biased..You see..we encamped the Palestinian in GAZA for their own good..( what good ?? ) And they have the cheek to say GAZA is the BIGGEST PRISON IN THE WORLD..such ignorant..sheesh..
[[But unfortunately, this audience is so much biased and influenced by hate so they cannot admit wrong thinking.]]
Take a look at me..Profess love..Hey you..boy..dare you throw that stone at me..IDF please ‘neutralize’ this threat!!
[[One of the greatest human attributes is to admit false thinking, mistakes and errors.]]
Like we are showing them how..Emm such a kick pontificating..
[[This requires a maturity that is not yet strong among them. Those people are just looking and attacking the “mistakes” of the Jews. Muslims and Arabs are not mistaken, never.]]
Have they ever learned? We use UN when we needs them in the 1940’s..When we have what we need..we thumbed the nose at the world and UN too..Have Muslims and Arab never learns??
[[When Israel kills a Palestinian by error,]]
Ha..Ha..Ha..How come this ever happened??
[[they are brave enough to admit it and regret it]]
First: We are brave enough to let in the International reporters all over the world to GAZA and UN too.We let them see the destruction the Palestinian ‘did to themselves’..We let UN documented all the atrocities the Palestinian ‘did to themselves’..
We even publish them in Times and all major News..What is the Muslims and the Palestinian really wants?..Sheesh..
Second: We truly regret the Palestinian ‘lost of lives’ and only use knives,baton,wielding stick and small firearm to really really ‘minimized’ their casualties…
What more do the Palestinian want??
[[When innocent Israeli civilians are killed by Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims, they never apologize or regret it. In many cases they even celebrate by offering candies in the streets. This is the mentality]]
Yep..Innocent..But wait a minute..In Muslim religion the one who put up arms is soldier and enemy combatant and even if they are women and youngster..Therefore combatant rules applies to combatant..Why don’t they ever learns from us?..We bombed them all as collateral..Muslims..don’t you ever apogize or regret?..
[[With such a biased brain washed people the effort to convince them with your (or my) rightness is an almost lost battle.]]
See..That’s why God chose us and not them..Ahem..Ahem..
[[We believe that friendship is prior peace which makes peace the result of the friendship]]
Agreed Dear Hanan..But friend’s like you..Who needs enemy???
[[Since we (you and me) are just 2 against so many, we may have some more dialog power. I think that this is to prove our enemies our true desire for peace. I wasn’t able to address a single Palestinian or Arab to participate in that blog (maybe there are some, but they didn’t “stamp” it.]]
Hanan and Tempered and all you alike..Why are you ‘offering’ peace?I let you out the secret..
You needs a peace of mind.You are scared many number of reasons that this ‘engagement’ will cost you, your life in any number of event’s..Your life is so precious to you because for you there is no hereafter..
Hanan..it is good for you for this goodwill but shows us real incentive..
Terima kasih Tun..
I would like to add, if I may, two last little points, which are nevertheless crucial to be underlined since they make explicit certain matters underlying my response to prof_ridcully and azal.
First of all,as I tried to explain but should have stated clearly, Shahak’s story of the supposed Rabbinic ruling to the Israeli soldier could not have happened, simply because there is no such Rabbinic ruling as he claimed and any real Rabbi would know that: the alleged saying not only has no standing in Rabbinic law and morality, it is directly contrary to explicit Rabbinic law and morality. So the story about the Rabbi and the soldier was made up, purposely twisting an angry personal outburst by an individual rabbi into a supposed Rabbinic principle. It is telling that neither Rabbi nor soldier is given any name, and there are no further details about time and place, so that Shahak could avoid any disproof or lawsuit in an Israeli court for slander. This I am sorry to say is typical of Shahak.
Secondly, I notice in azal’s account of the Banu Qurazya a curious but telling thing: those victims are made out to be the one’s who demand their own murder. They alone are blamed for their own deaths: they are portrayed as in effect ordering their vacuous zombi-like murderers, who can then be clean of their own sin. The Banu Qurazya rabbi, no less (just like Shahak’s rabbi and just as fictional, since there are no Rabbinic precedents to justify such a directive), supposedly makes a ruling that such a people who are in the Banu Qurazya situation, conquered and pleading for mercy, should have all their males exterminated, and their women and children taken as booty, slaves. And supposedly their actual non-Jewish murderers therefore had to obey this alleged Rabbinic ruling, and bore no personal responsibility for their actions! This, frankly, is rather too obviously crafted to absolve the murderers of their guilt for their really quite indefensible war crime. After all, their captors were not Jews and were hardly bound by Rabbinic decrees. Quite the contrary. The guilt of their massacre remains their own. As I wrote before, nothing in the final analysis removes personal moral responsibility for actions one does, not the group around one, and certainly not one’s own blaming the victims for one’s own criminal acts.
Dear friend Tempered, Shalom and grace – ש
I thank the bloggers prof_ridcully and azul for giving me the opportunity to refute yet more antisemitic/anti-Zionist mythologies.
First, prof_ridcully. There were no “red herrings” in my comments, merely disproofs of your own statements, most of which were rather stinky “red herrings” of their own, I am afraid. The “Arab genes” is such a red herring. Not only did I not make any claim, either explicit or implied, about Arab genes, neither did Mallmann and Cüppers: you should read their essay. Since you insist on this subject I am pleased in fact to take the opportunity to refer you to an article that certainly proves that antisemitism is not genetic in Arabs: http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP189708. Another such proof is the eloquent http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/09/19/2007-09-19_i_am_with_israel_one_arabamericans_salut.html. I would love to list others, but this is sufficient to hammer home the point yet again that the problem is evil ideologies, not evil genes. “Evil genes,” besides, is a morally thoroughly objectionable claim in itself since it lets individuals off the hook and negates their own personal moral responsibility for the community ideologies of hate and murder that they espouse and hide in. Individual Muslims are not exonerated for their antisemitic views because it is such a pervading mentality in Muslim societies, just as individual Germans, such as Adolf Eichmann to take an instance, were not exonerated by the fact that antisemitism pervaded Nazi society during the 30s and 40s: each person remains responsible for themselves and their actions regardless of circumstances and pressures. As the traditional Jewish Noahite teaching emphasizes, there are after all some decent and good people in just about every society, even the worst, who prove this human capacity for personal uprightness and dissent from evil regardless of the self-justifications of even of the criminals around them, and so we find that some “righteous gentiles” who saved Jewish lives during the Holocaust were Germans, just as some others were Muslims in Turkey, Bosnia and Albania. It is precisely this fact that makes more reprehensible the rampant conformism to hate teachings, and abdication of personal moral responsibility before group violence, that characterises far too much of the Muslim world.
It was you, prof_ridcully, who changed the subject to Christian antisemitism, another “red herring” if ever there was one, but I did not dwell at any length on the topic, merely observing that your endorsement of Christian antisemitic mythologies, thankfully acknowledged as such by most Christian scholars these days and even repudiated by official statements by the Catholic Church, has its chief significance in this blog as further regretable evidence of the existence and persistence of Muslim antisemitism. There is a saying that “the Devil could quote Scripture to his purpose,” meaning that everything depends on the context, and ripping things out of their context or even misquoting them entirely will allow a person to turn the plain sense of Scripture upside down. So the chief point your citation proves is the persistence of your own biases.
You do however come to the point at last: “The actual issues in this thread, Tempered, are the facts that Jews from Europe were transported to Palestine in the early 20th century in large numbers to form a racist, genocidal, apartheid state called Israel, and the implications of the formation of that state.” Lovely. None of these assertions are “facts,” prof_ridcully, on the contrary they are completely false. Jews were not interlopers “transported” from Europe despite their will in the early 20th century. Those that came during that period received very little help, and mostly overcame tremendous hurdles maintained by the British even during the height of the Holocaust and immediately afterward. They came at great personal sacrifice and out of desperate need and longing. But Jews have been present in their holy land, the land of their Bible, for 3,500 years, with hardly a break, despite every effort by invading oppressors, whether Roman, Christian or Muslim, to take over their land, to crush them and to drive them out. Many other peoples suffering exile down through the ages have lost their connection to their homeland and have ultimately disappeared from history, but not the Jews, indeed they have persisted down through the generations in holding fast in their holy land or in returning there. The Arabs, in any case, were invaders, not natives of the land as were the Jews. The centrality of the Land of Israel for Jews, in the past, now and in the future is a central theme in the Bible, in the millenia-old Jewish liturgy, and in medieval as well as modern Jewish literature. There were major deeply devout communities of Jews in the land of Israel, most living in dire poverty, throughout the Middle Ages and the Ottoman and British Mandate periods, who were being constantly added to by pilgrim immigrants and by the late 19th century more secularist Jews too, so that they together constituted the ages-old majority of such cities as Jerusalem, Tiberias, Safed and eventually Haifa; Tel Aviv was established on sand-dunes to the north of Jaffa early in the 20th century to create a secure Jewish refuge and soon, partly due to Arab terrorism against Jaffa Jews, Tel Aviv swelled to larger numbers than Jaffa’s Arab population.
As mentioned in an earlier post, the Jews did not dispossess the Arabs at all. They purchased land legally, and despite the outrage of azul, there is nothing illegal in people selling their land, although it is racist to propose preventing people from selling specifically to Jews. In fact Arab numbers grew as the Jews quickly developed businesses and farming, new towns and cities, so improving the entire regional economy that tens of thousands of Arabs flocked to Jewish areas over the decades from the entire Middle East who were seeking work. Many of these very recent immigrants’ descendants, Syrian, Egyptian, Arabian, Iraqi, even Tunisian and Algerian, are amongst the “Palestinians” who claim to have lived in the land “From Time Immemorial” (see Joan Peters’ book of that title).
Furthermore, Zionism as an ideology was not racist in its founding formulations. It is interesting to read the books of the most important founding father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, namely Die Judenstaat, and Altneuland, and find there explicitly laid out hopes for a peaceful Jewish-Arab utopia, in which Jewish enterprise enabled Arabs too to prosper (raising the economy and happiness of the entire Middle East, along much the same lines as in President Shimon Peres’ and Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s frequently repeated recent statements). Herzl’s ideal was a liberal democratic state that seeks peace with its neighbours and in which all non-Jews would have citizenship and equal rights. This sort of state is in fact precisely what Israel has become.
The claim that Israel is racist is often “justified” by anti-Zionists by Israel’s insistence on being a Jewish and democratic state, and thus restricting itself to borders within which the majority will remain Jewish. This means that Israel has no expansionist nor imperialist goals, due to its basic principles. But the fact that Israel was established by the U.N. to be a specifically Jewish state, making the only one in the world, does not mean it is racist. Racism is against Jewish principles, and Israel is after all also a Western liberal democracy, and as such and by its own self-understanding rejects racism and intolerance. As is well-known, there are many Western liberal democracies that privilege Christianity in their self-definition: e.g., England is officially Anglican (“Church of England”) and Scotland Presbyterian (“Church of Scotland”); Ireland is Catholic as is Spain and Italy; Sweden, Denmark and Norway are Lutheran, Greece is Greek Orthodox, and so on: but these all seriously and genuinely work at being non-racist, liberal and tolerant societies that in actual fact extend full civil rights and freedoms to all their citizens of every creed and ethnicity. As in their fellow-democracy Israel, their privileging their traditional culture’s majority religion implies no racist exclusion of others. All the more so in Israel because there more than in almost any of the other states mentioned, the majority religion of Judaism embraces equally an extremely wide racial diversity drawn from around the world and from almost all the races and cultures of humanity. Ethiopian and American Blacks, blond north Europeans, American Indians and Asian Indians, as well of course as Sephardi and Ashkenazi descendants of the original Biblical Jews (who themselves mingled a mixed multitude, beginning with the Exodus from Egypt, cf. Exod. 12:38), all crowd the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as Jews. Israel precisely because of its Jewish majority is one of the most multi-racial countries in the world.
But on the other hand, most Arab states privilege Islam as the state-supported religion, and due to their authoritarian structure these states generally penalize in one way or another all other religious communities, including minority Muslim ones; Saudi Arabia even openly prohibits extending citizenship to non-Muslims as such, and forbids entry to Jews altogether. The huge Muslim slave trade with Africa down through the ages has had the result that there is a large underclass of blacks in these societies who are still regularly discriminated against. Now semi-permanent “guest workers” from South and East Asia in the Gulf States are adding another huge ethnic underclass without citizenship or rights, very like apartheid South Africa. Is not this manifestly racist? Even more to the point, the Palestinians insist that theirs really must be an explicitly racist Arab Palestinian state, restricted to Arabs, in which for example no Jewish settlements are allowed at all – they must be “ethnically cleansed” from the proposed “Palestine.” They also insist on privileging Islam as the state-supported religion, as does just about every Arab state in the Middle East. By the criteria of anti-Zionists that they pretend to apply to Israel, that makes all the Arab states racist at their foundation, by definition. Oddly enough, such blatant Palestinian and Arab racism does not disturb those who so righteously attack Israel for being racist. The truth is that Palestine in its past roots, its present reality and in its proposed future statehood contrasts completely with Israel’s liberal democratic, tolerant and non-racist society.
If it is said that the provision in Israel that a Jew born elsewhere can become a citizen of Israel if he or she comes there and declares the intention to reside there, is “racist,” this argument would have to overcome not just the point that the Jews are not a race, but also that the “Palestine” envisaged by their enemies claims the same right for their own “Palestinian Arabs,” who are indeed a race. It would also have to confront the fact that Greece gives similar privileges to Greeks living abroad, as does England, Germany, Sweden, and indeed most countries in the world.
The equation of Israeli liberal democracy with apartheid policies also fails the smell test. Israeli Arabs are citizens of the state, have their own political representatives in the Israeli Parliament, and enjoy full civil, political and religious rights. They live all over Israel, as any traveller there will find, and enjoy access to universities, business, and all the rest. It must however be granted that they are very closely related to the Palestinians who sponsor terrorism against Israel, and they are not required therefore to serve in the army (some in the Arab community do, often with distinction). For a view from an Arab Israeli on the “apartheid” charge, see http://jta.org/news/article/2009/04/01/1004187/op-ed-apartheid-in-israel-the-facts-say-otherwise
I particularly love prof_ridcully’s claim that Israel is genocidal. He is really helping me out: such wildly imaginary claims are self-refuting on their face. As even Palestinian annual population statistics underline, there has been no genocide of Palestinians by Israel at all. There are no death camps, gas chambers, pits filled with bodies, bomb-leveled cities and villages, etc. Instead, Palestinian numbers have grown steadily according to their own demographers. The truth is that more Palestinians have been killed by Palestinians and by other Arabs (e.g., in Jordan and Lebanon) than by Israelis since 1948, even if one does not remove from the tally mythical massacre figures such as those alleged for Jenin in 2002 (which were totally refuted by an independent U.N. investigative commission). Considering that Fatah in the past, and Hamas in the present, insist in fighting within urban areas and using civilian populations as human shields, their casualty rates in their battles with Israel, including recently in Gaza, are amazingly low, very much lower for example than such fighting in the various other wars of the past century or this, and certainly lower than in wars between Muslim communities such as in Lebanon, the Sudan, Algeria, Iraq and Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The claims of prof_ridcully get more and more delusional as he progresses: he even claims Zionist leaders worked with the Nazis to transport European Jews to the death camps, punishing them for not be willing to come to British Mandate Palestine. Hey, why not even claim that Hitler was a Jew and that the Nazis were really Hasidic Jews dressed up as Aryans? Why let reason or common decency stop you just half-way? Frankly, such claims are not worth answering, because quite clearly their author is beyond reach of objective reality or of genuine scholarship.
For example, it is not true that antisemitism as a term first came into usage after 1948. That is just a pure invention. As even the briefest research will show, the term was first coined in the 1800s, and was first popularized by the German pamphleteer Wilhelm Marr in an antisemitic book published in 1873. From its beginning it referred only to Jews, not all of whom were Semites (some indeed were Aryan converts to Judaism), and not to other Semites as a race, so it was from the start a misnomer based on willfully ignorant bigotry and pseudo-science. Since it has been synonymus from its start with Jew-hatred, it is quite logical that “antisemites” can be found amongst Arabs and other Semites. The Nazis even explicitly distinguished between Jews and other Semites, and preached and practiced their antisemitism only against Jews. No Arabs were starved and worked to death, or gassed in the Nazi death camps. Hitler personally cultivated good relations, in fact, with the Arab world, and as mentioned in an earlier post, he hosted that generation’s most militant leader of Palestinian Arabs, Haj Amin el-Hussaini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, in Berlin during WWII, promising him that he would rule over a Jew-free Middle East, as the head of a Greater Syria under German imperial “protection,” after the war. Anti-Zionism was actively promulgated and encouraged in the Arab world as part of German colonial-imperialist designs on the Middle East and as a fulcrum to remove British and other competing interests there. From that perspective the P.L.O. was an inheritance after WWII of Nazi colonialism.
prof_ridcully then goes on to claim that some unnamed Israeli rabbi told some unnamed Israeli soldier that the Talmud says it is commanded for Jews to kill even the best of the gentiles. And his source for this faery tale? Israel Shahak, a highly controversial far-leftist polemicist and fanatical anti-Zionist, who did not receive a Talmudic education and basically just skimmed antisemitic books for his sources on the Talmud. When he did not invent his quotations he twisted them, and like his wider account of sayings and doings in Israel his claims about the Jewish religion is often highly fanciful, malicious and dishonest. The claim in this specific case is, as could be expected, false. There was one rabbi quoted in the Talmud (over 3,000 rabbis are cited, in discussions spanning over 600 years) who said even the best of gentiles should be killed: he had seen all his disciples and indeed an entire generation of great saints and Torah scholars as well as ordinary Jews killed by the Romans, usually through excruciating and drawn-out tortures, and he had to hide for 13 years in a cave to escape their ravages. The horrors were equivalent in its time to the Holocaust now. Judea was practically depopulated when he emerged, and he understandably expressed his burning sorrow and rage against all the persecutors of the Jews. But, crucially, Shahak refuses to add that this rabbi’s angry comments were merely reported, with pity, as his own passing outburst, which was not cited as a precedent by anyone else, which therefore had no legal status and which was unamimously rejected by the other sages of his own and later generations. In fact, it is the Talmudic ruling, based on Torah passages and supported by all later Judaism, that righteous people exist in every enduring culture, and they will all enjoy the World-to-Come, that is, eternal salvation, without the necessity of converting to Judaism. Murder of any human being is considered a crime, in Judaism, including murder of non-Jews. We are all in the divine image, however much we may deface it. In fact, it is a Talmudic teaching that at the time of Noah, Noah on behalf of all his descendants entered into a covenant with God that consisted of seven commandments. Anyone who followed these basic commandments will be assured of salvation (honor God and do not blaspheme against him; support the establishment of courts of law in society, do not murder, steal, or commit sexual perversities, and finally, do not torment nor cause any unnecessary pain to animals including especially those you use for food). The commandment prohibiting murder, like all the other Noahite commandments, applies to all humanity, whether Jew or non-Jew. In fact, the Talmud teaches that to kill a single person or save the life of a single person is equivalent to killing or saving the whole world. It makes no exceptions to this, and in fact the Talmudic rabbis 2,000 years ago were the first in human history effectively to outlaw capital punishment and to outlaw torture of any sort to obtain confessions. They were far ahead of their times. Ever since Jewish societies have been exceptional for their refusal to rise up against their oppressors with violence, and for their lack of violence amongst themselves. Per capita statistics for violent crimes including murder are generally lowest amongst Jews. This is not accidental. It expresses essential traits in Jewish culture and religion.
Finally, prof_ridcully, you misquote the passage on the slaughter of Jews in Fez and Morocco. You leave out the crucial words at its end, which negate your own mocking interpretation completely. I am afraid that you are no more reliable than Shahak.
This is the full quote, first of Yemini’s text, then my of own comments on it:
“In 1033, in the city of Fez, 6,000 Jews were murdered by a Muslim mob. The rise of the Almohad dynasty caused waves of mass murders. According to testimony from that time, 100,000 Jews were slaughtered in Fez and about 120,000 in Marrakesh (this testimony should be viewed with caution).”
Caution or not, the slaughters were monumental, and they did not just occur under the Almohades, but continued down in more local form down through the centuries. There were several in 19th century Ottoman Syria-Palestine, well before Zionism arose. But I need not go on. The link, again, for those willing to read it, is: http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/05/ben-dror-yemini-the-jewish-nakba-expulsi/index.shtml
So the actual passage expresses appropriate scholarly reserve about the specific numbers given in the testimonies from that period. But those WERE the testimonies from contemporaries; Yemini did not make them up. The specific numbers are not crucial, therefore, but the overall conclusion is: the slaughters were massive and no doubt were of entire cities of Jews, very many thousands at the least.
I see that I have devoted too much space to prof_ridcully. So I must be short with Mr. azal. Briefly, I disbelieve the entire account of the Banu Qurayza that you give. After all, it comes only from their murderers. Their own view of things is conspicuously absent and we can be sure it would be dramatically different. But I can say this. You accuse “the Jews” of dispossessing the Palestinian Arabs of their own land, expelling and killing them. This is certainly not true, but let us suppose that it was, and that this is a criminal behavior that cannot be excused or justified. So any kind of violent resistance, such as outright genocidal terrorism against all Jews by the Palestinians, is entirely just and good, you say, not even real terrorism at all. Now tell me what Muhammad and the two Arab tribes that invited him into Medina to rule over the Jews with him did to the Jews under them. Did those Arab tribesmen invade Medina and take it over? Did they, and Muhammad too, force themselves on the Jews without their consent, dispossess them from their land, and expell and kill them? Were not the Jews of Medina therefore justified in fighting Muhammad and his Arab followers to the death? According to you, of course they were, just as the Palestinian Arabs are justified in resisting to the death, murdering all the while. And was Muhammad and his Arab followers justified in expelling them and wiping out the Banu Qurayza? According to you, of course they were not, just as the Israelis were not justified despite the constant terrorism and murder of their own people by the Arabs. Fine and dandy: the real conclusion is that you do not believe your own assertions; you only mean to delegitimize and demonize Jews. That is at the root of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and until that disappears that conflict will remain. This comment can also apply to selsis’s post. The root problem in the Middle East is the refusal of Arab countries to admit the independent existence of a non-Arab country in their midst: this is an offense against their “honor,” to be expiated by murder. Any non-Arab country would be so treated, so it has nothing in itself to do with Jews. If they were Christians, Baha’is, Hindus, or transcendental angels, the same endless defamations and attacks would continue. That it is a Jewish state only makes it worse, however, due to traditional Arab views that Jews were on the lowest rung of Muslim society, weak and defenseless, and should remain forever so. Then there is the religious aspect: according to Muslim teachings, once a land has been conquered by Muslims, they have a permanent God-given right to rule it forever, and to take it back through jihad if it is lost to them. Dhimmis do not have any right to rule themselves. There is really nothing Israel can do to appease such totalitarian negative beliefs. It can only defend itself and outlast them, and it will. Egypt has made a lasting peace with Israel, and so has Jordan, so it can be done, and the sky did not fall down. The rest of the Muslim world will have to accept something similar. Israel can wait for that part of the world to modernize and reform itself; it will take a good while, but it will happen.
I am afraid, azal, to take the last remaining point, that your British-Malay example is irrelevant and inapplicable. That is another conflict and history entirely, quite unrelated to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. And your attempt to turn entirely legal, voluntary and legitimate purchase of land by individuals into some sort of international crime or sinister underhanded plot is nonsensical. No coercion was involved: it could not be, when we are talking about transactions occurring under close Ottoman Muslim supervision that disadvantaged Jews in general and certainly tended to coerce them rather than Arabs. Much the same is true under the British Mandate. It might occur to you that to prohibit any Jewish land purchases while allowing all others is simply racism, pure and simple.
Dear Tun,
Israelis will continue forever to receive support from the west including the world’s superpower, USA. I cannot believe Obama can be instrumental to the peacefull settlement of the Palestinian and Israeli issues. There will be no good promises. It is just like when you look at an apple which is red and rosy, but when you bite into it, it is rotten like most promises.
I choose to wonder why an unending disputes in the middle east. Is it because the west would want the Israelis to exist to undermine the Arab countries? But on the other hand, I am sad the neighbouring Arab countries can do nothing much to help in settling the problems. I also begin to think that Palestine is fated to be in the kind of situation for ages and with no hope of living in peace with the existence of the Israelis state. What if the the Israeli state never exist in the middle east? Will there be peace in the middle east? Will the Arab countries be united and strong and not fighting each other?
ZACHARY64 provides an excellent illustration of the mindset I described in my post just above his, from June 17, 2009 4:10 PM. It also illustrates the points made in the Pew Global Survey that I quoted there. His post therefore really does not deserve any specific refutation. But I cannot help adding that Jews in the U.S., who only number about 2.1% of the population in any case and hardly sway elections, voted overwhelmingly for the Democratic Party’s presidential candidate Clinton when he replaced the Republican George Bush, and again voted heavily Democratic when the Republican George W. Bush replaced him. Bush continued to support Israel not because of Jewish political support, open or hidden, but simply because as a decent man of moral fibre (like the overwhelming majority of Americans), he sympathized with Jews, knew quite well that they too were decent people, and so even as a humane Christian he deplored the rabid antisemitic mythologies that have demonized them and blighted history including Christian history (mythologies now so widely spread in the Muslim world it warps almost all political discourse there, furthers violent extremism, and prevents reform, self-criticism, humane liberalization, tolerance and peace). He also as a matter of obvious political good sense stood strongly with America’s firmest ally in the Middle East and refused to abandon it to the demonizers, seeing it as the only stable liberal democracy in the Middle East. If anything he wanted just that sort of democracy to spread throughout the Middle East and improve all Arab lives as it has improved the lives of Americans, Israelis, Europeans and many other peoples. None of this depended on any sinister Jewish plot or underhanded corruption. Clinton was a friend of Israel, and most Jews were sorry to see him lose office, as voting patterns and opinion surveys show. But Bush was also a friend, even without Jewish support, merely as a matter of principle and moral conviction. Reality is a bit more complex than totalitarian mentalities and paranoid demonizations allow for.
[With the Tun’s indulgence, I should like to reply to Tempered]
Tsk tsk Tempered,
Like I said, you must try better.
//Whether or not readers whose minds are made up anyway approve of your argumentation is irrelevant, since their minds are made up anyway. Others however would not be convinced, since you did not discuss the actual issues//
You tell us to discuss the actual issues when you throw in red herrings into the discussion, and you then tell us discuss the red herrings. The red herrings have now become the ‘actual issues,’ the subject of discussion.
Well, let’s do discuss the actual issues.
The actual issues in this thread, Tempered, are the facts that Jews from Europe were transported to Palestine in the early 20th century in large numbers to form a racist, genocidal, apartheid state called Israel, and the implications of the formation of that state. This state recognises only one UN Resolution, Resolution 181 that called for the establishment of Israel, and has consistently ignored more than 60 other UN Resolutions. The UN established Israel and you then have the temerity to label the UN as being filled with anti-Israelis and, yes, anti-semites, when it doesn’t suit you.
Zionist organisations in Germany worked with the Nazis in the early 20th century to transport Jews who had refused to be taken to British-occupied Palestine to the concentration camps in Poland, Hungary, Germany, and elsewhere. Zionists wanted to increase the number of Jews in Palestine so that they can form a viable state.
Here is the link to the article in Indymedia. [http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/5200/index.php]. I’m putting it here so that other visitors may read it themselves.
Further, this is what the UN says regarding the Mandated Territories in the Middle East:
“All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to “the rendering of administrative assistance and advice” the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the “Balfour Declaration” issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”. [Italics mine]
Balfour’s letter to Walter Rothchild, a prominent Zionist, paved the way for the expropriation Palestine to form a Jewish state.
//Then you claimed that I said that Arabs are Nazis in their genes, racially Nazi. I said no such thing, and now even when I explicitly restate my actual claims, you disregard them//
I disregarded them for a reason. Of course you did not explicitly say that Arabs are Nazis. That’s not the technique that someone like you would use. It’s clumsy. Instead you implied that they are, through using labelling, hate caricature and negative stereotyping. That was the whole point of quoting Mallmann and Cüppers wasn’t it?
//And when I speak of Muslim antisemitism, you change the subject entirely to Christian antisemitic claims (mythological in nature, too, by the way – the actual Jesus and the Jesus Christ of the Christian account are two different figures, one historical, the other fictional//
Now, I don’t know how the Christians are going to take this statement of yours. I just quoted a passage from the King James Bible (from an impeccable Christian source, mind you) and you say that’s it’s a mythical claim.
I really do wish you’d stop your labelling of people who don’t agree with you as anti-semites or bigots (see below). As a Muslim, I revere Prophet Musa (peace be upon him) and Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) and all the other prophets going back to Prophet Ishaq (peace be upon them all), who were Jews. I treat with respect prophets who were Jews. How does that make me and other Muslims anti-semites? And as I’ve said before, Arabs, being the offspring of Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) are semites too.
The term anti-semite only came into being after 1948. But I forget: one of the techniques to make a lie into a ‘truth’ is to repeat the lie often enough so that over time it is accepted as the truth, isn’t it?
//Not all websites are equal, prof_ridcully. Some are filled with falsehoods, others present reality. So your refusal even to read scholarly articles on sites that do not agree with you already, that are supportive of Jews and Israel, is merely bigotry.//
Bigotry? Yes, yes. See above.
How do you like it if I said this?: A rabbi’s answer to an Israeli soldier who has asked whether or not it is proper to kill Arab women and children. In his answer the rabbi quotes from the Talmud: “The best of the Gentiles–kill him; the best of snakes–dash out its brains.”
The above quotation is from a book written by a Jew, Israel Shahak, with a foreword by Gore Vidal.
And oh, one last thing. I do wish you’d be careful with the figures you bandy about when you post a comment:
//In 1033, in the city of Fez, 6,000 Jews were murdered by a Muslim mob. The rise of the Almohad dynasty caused waves of mass murders. According to testimony from that time, 100,000 Jews were slaughtered in Fez and about 120,000 in Marrakesh//
In the year 1033, I’d guess that 120,000 would be the total population of Marrakesh. Wouldn’t you? We don’t want to end up having to revise the figures of Jewish deaths in a conflict like they did for Auschwitz (downwards from 4 million to 1.2 million) do we?
And please don’t start to label me a Holocaust denier after having said that. Even this son of Holocaust survivors agrees. And again, you being an unemotional, balanced, unbiased, scholarly commenter, please don’t label him as a self-hating Jew after reading his views.
————— Tempered 1st comment I think ——————–
—— italic’s mine ———
With all due respect, I am truly amazed that a responsible former head of state can spout such completely ignorant ideas. Sensible Muslims have real cause for shame when their leaders on the world stage cannot rise above such fanciful and hateful demonizations and even excuse and ground these in Muslim texts and agendas. Too bad.
If by nothing else, Mr. Mahathir should be chastened by the sort of people who applaud his views on this blog, many of whom are open and true antisemites, Muslim and non-Muslim. One may know a man by the company he keeps. Similarly with the Palestinian leadership. Not by accident did Hitler welcome Haj Amin el-Hussaini, the leader of the Palestinians of the generation of British Mandate Palestine in the 1920s and 30s; el-Hussaini actually spent World War II in Nazi Germany as the honored guest of Hitler; after the war he mentored his nephew Yasser Arafat in his own genocidal antisemitism. Ever since, he was engaged in murdering Jews, whether at airline terminals, pizza parlours or school buses, Olympic games or tourist cruises. I would not like to think that Mr. Mahathir endorses all this or wishes to consort with such people as his equals.
Here we go
In any case, the claims made by Mr. Mahathir are so ludicrous and exaggerated it is easy to refute them very simply.
Taking them in order, and starting with number 5: The Jews who settled in British Mandate Palestine did not seize “Palestinian” land, but as a matter of documented fact purchased it entirely legally from voluntary sellers, or peaceably settled uninhabited and unowned wilderness including swamps and desert, and made them fertile and habitable through sheer hard work and incredible sacrifice. No “Palestinians” were massacred or expelled.
I think you might be omitting some detail here about how Jews purchased and got land from “Palestinian land”..
If you’ve researched a bit about Malaysia’s history.. You will see that the British also just “purchased lands legally” from Malaysian Rajas here and there, here and there, (mostly through manipulations of several civil wars and laxness and greediness of those rajas..) and ‘suddenly’.. they’ve seized control of the whole Tanah Melayu (which is now called Malaysia).
But why are there many Malays that rebelled, fought and battled against the Brits?
After all, the British got Tanah Melayu ‘legally’, isn’t that correct? Some of the lands they bought, some of them they simply assumed control.
And the British seized the power and lands in Tanah Melayu without any bloodshed with Malays or expelling anyone.. is that correct? (except when the Malays rebels, the Brits win by force, THEN the Brits expel them, cos now they have ‘official’ excuse to expel them)
But why are there many Malays that rebelled, fought and battled against the Brits? (again)
From my PoV, there seems to be more to it then simply “Jews bought and obtained the land legally, but the Arabs still hate us.” Have the Jews discussed the stuff with all of the other civilians of “Palestinian land”? Sure, you bought the land from some rich, greedy “Palestinian” that doesn’t think about all other Palestinians in the long run (which in turn, makes the Jews manipulating the situation, same like what British did in Tanah Melayu), and also got settlements in unused lands through UN (in which case probably the “Palestinians” did not have a say in that matter, the UN made the decision without discussing with any “Palestinians” at all, just following the Jews’ lead)..
I, for once, would be quite pissed if I suddenly find someone I don’t know building a house in my orchard that I go to once a year. Sure I don’t visit there much, but hey that’s my land. At a personal level this wouldn’t mean much, but at a national scale, this is a very serious matter.
What if suddenly UN says “Yeah let’s give some unused land in Sarawak to some Indonesian.” without Malaysia having a word in it.. and so the Indonesians gleefully went deep into borders of Sarawak and made settlements there? Wow, there’ll probably be a huge uproar.
Just an example… Sure it sounds ridiculous, but this may have been the case between Jews and “Palestinians”, and was just like how Brits gained control of lands in Tanah Melayu.. (except they didn’t need any UN intervention, because they WERE the “UN”).
So, hey, if you can tell me the real, smaller, finer details about the Israeli acquisition of the “Palestinian land”, then I’m all ears.
If the indigenous Arabs (who then resisted the name “Palestinians,” by the way, insisting that they were “Syrians” or “Jordanians”) had accepted the 1947 UN resolution establishing two states, one overwhelmingly Jewish and the other entirely Arab, in the area west of the Jordan, there would have been no war, no “dispossession” at all and no “refugee” problem.
This is obvious on the face of it. The Jews wanted peace with the Arabs and invited them to remain amongst them, and also strongly urged a “two-state solution” then.
It was the Arabs who refused and insisted on violent conflict, with the armies of five Arab states and two additional “irregular” armed forces invading the Jewish areas even before the State of Israel was formally declared in May, 1948. They frankly and publicly proclaimed their aim to be a total annihilation of the entire Jewish population. There was no talk of setting up a separate “Palestine” then. Even in the 1920s and 30s the Arabs, led by Haj Amin el-Hussaini, aimed for a Greater Syria and not a separate Arab “Palestine.” el-Hussaini led terrorist attacks on Jewish settlements and communities, wiping out whole civilian populations and driving out the surviving Jews from outlying towns like Hebron. But the Jewish community refused to reply in kind, practicising restraint throughout the 20s and 30s and during World War II because they wished to give no excuse for the British to close down immigration of Jews. All this is a matter of easy historical verification, documented at the time.
This is like I stated above. What if somebody from another country came to Israel and said this:
“Hi, here I got this land because UN said so.. Yeah you didn’t have a word in it. Anyways how about you just give me this huge part of the land and you keep the leftover lands you guys still have? Deal?”
And for Brits-Malay example:
“Hi, I’m Brit. I want to help you gain peace and win. I help you, you give me this certain amount of land. Deal?”
-Oh and btw the “Malay Raja” was stupid enough, or at least not forward-looking enough, to say yes.. Though you can’t blame them, at that time anybody who Brits sided with would probably win the war, if he didn’t accept Brit’s offer, The Brits would simply go the the other party, and then the other party would accept. So it’s win-win for Brits, lose-lose for Malay.
In any case, simply, the ‘deal’ that was handed to the ‘Palestinians’ was:
Israel/Jews get land, You lose land.
…So how can you expect them to accept that ‘deal’?
You can’t simply say “The Arabs don’t want peace with Jews” because the JEWS ARE BLATANTLY TAKING THE LAND AWAY FROM THEM.
In my opinion it is the “Jews who don’t want peace with Arabs by refusing to give the land back to those Arabs/’Palestinians'”
But hey if I’m wrong correct me.
I’d like to comment on all your points but my time is short. However here’s a few other of your points that stood out for me:
– You always say that Arab hates Jews because, simply, Arab simply hates Jews for no reason, though there ARE reasons why Arab would hate Jew (Obvious example would be Palestine, and simply how bad reputation Jews have with Muslims, even loooong before Muhammad was born, and how the Jews community behaved with Muhammad to say a few).
– Jews were always chased away by other countries in Europe.. (Not sure if this was one of your point of “Jewish history).. but anyways.. Wow I really wonder why Jews have bad rep with many other European countries.
No, don’t tell me because “They’re jealous of our supremacy”.
Chased away by a country but accepted by another country is alright..
But chased away by a country, accepted by another country just to be chased away again, and again, and again, and again..
For.. What.. 1000 years or more?
This is certainly not because of “Jealousy”. I can’t help but think there must be something really negative about them that all other countries wouldn’t accept them..
And hey, but still, Islamic countries accepted Jews! Even IF what you’re saying that Jews in Muslim countries are actually “suffering” is correct (though I’m guessing it’s not), but I guess not being “chased away” by Muslim countries is actually still good enough when all other countries don’t accept Jews.
– I certainly can’t ignore the point that you said that Prophet Muhammad and Islam, oppressed Jews.
WTF is that.
When Muhammad hijrah from Mekah to Madinah and became the ruler there (it was Madinah that invited Muhammad to come from Mekah to Madinah and become the ruler over there), did he expel Jews away from Madinah? NO. And just for note, he did not expel any civilians who don’t want to convert to Islam either.
All of them are free to do whatever they want.. And at that time the Jews controlled the economy of Madinah if I’m not mistaken. Muhammad didn’t harm their economy prowess one bit.
There are 3 rules about non-Muslims in Madinah, sorry my memory is blurry, but it’s something like this:
1. If Madinah were to be attacked, both Muslims and non-Muslims civilians will be protected.
2. If Madinah were to be attacked, both Muslims and non-Muslims men have to defend Madinah.
3. Muslims have to pay Zakat (like tax), non-Muslims have to pay tax too.
And.. guess what? In several battles/wars with places/groups that attacked Madinah (Mekah for example) before the Jews were expelled (yeah, they were expelled from Madinah later on.. for a good reason too), the JEWS NEVER JOINED ANY SINGLE BATTLE, EVEN WHEN THEY PROMISED TOO.
However, it was the Jews that started rebelling.. And here’s one point in the history that I remember..
Bani Quraizah, I think that’s the name, a Jew colony..
And guess what happened? The Jews made an act of treason. They have promised to fight for Madinah.. However when it’s nearing to the day of battle (battle of the ditch), bani Quraizah declared that they did not have any treaty with muslims, and actually helped the Quraish to attack Madinah. Though Madinah managed to fend off the attack.
As for this treachery, Muhammad had no choice but to siege the Bani Quraizah’s village for days and stop supplies from coming in.
As the days passed by, the bani Quraizah leader made 3 proposals for his people:
1. Everyone should accept Islam
Everybody rejected it as they will never want to be converted to Islam.
2. Kill their wife and children and then go all out attacking Muslims
Rejected too, they wouldn’t want to kill their wife and children.
3. Attack Muslims on Sabbath day.
Which was rejected too.. because their ancestors were turned to apes when they went to battle during that day.
After a few weeks, the Muslims went in and captured all the Jews inside..
Well, during that time, the usual case for the act of treachery would be death.. However, Muhammad decided to be lenient to them.
Muhammad let them choose how should they be dealt with, by Islamic or Jewish law. They said they’re not Muslims, so they want to be dealt with by Jewish law. Muhammad even let them appoint their own arbitrator, in which case the Jews chose Saad ibn Muadh.
So.. Saad consulted with with some Jewish Rabbis and asked what would the Jews do if in a battle against Jews and Muslims, it was Jews who had won, and had taken men and women Muslim captives. What would the Jews do?
Guess what did the Rabbis say?
“The Jews would kill all the Muslim men captives and sell all women and children as slaves.”
Whereas, in Islamic law, the Jewish’d only be expelled from Madinah (as per shown from the previous Jewish tribes who were expelled too for the act of treason and staging coup d’etat)
And so, that was the sentence that was given to them. And see that’s how big the Jewish’s arrogance are.
History manipulators would simply say “Muhammad captured the Jews and killed all men and sold all women and children as slaves”, however that is certainly not the case.
It is due to the Jews’ arrogance that led them be sentenced like that. Muhammad would had only expelled them.
So I’ll say why don’t you study the Muslim history again and see how actually the Jews are treated by Muslims, and how the Jewish replied to Muslims’ kindness.
SALAM SEJAHTERA TO YAB TUN & friends,
Among all the US Presidents, Obama seems the only one who knows much about Islam, Christian as religions due to his parents’ & grandparents’ background in both Muslim and Christianity.HE is elected by the colour blind Americans who as people are very good people…The Americans generally are generally nice and friendly people but the problem lies in their government whose policies are being influenced and dictated by the Jews. You are not wrong by associating that the Jews act as American proxy.The Americans have become the proxy of the Jews.
In restropective, Clinton was considered quite liberal to Muslim world as opposed to Bush who antangonized the Muslims by invading Iraq , Afghanistan and let the Israelis military forces pounded the Palestinians and Gaza into oblivion.As Clinton tried to bring the Palestinian-Israel hostility into end, he eventually became the victim of the powerful Jews Economist and financiers who toppled him out of the pedestal.I didn’t know the truth but somebody told me that Monica Lewinsky happened to be a Jew and his affair was politicized at will and finally led to his fall from the Presidency.
Dont’ know whether this can be called as political conspiracy ???
I’m afraid that Obama will meet the similar fate if he is to be seen as Pro-Arabs and possibily he will be just one term black president in the US history.
internet and youtube now seems being misused..
instead of its function to entertain and knowledge..
now it becomes a like a battlefield
ive been in commenting those people in youtube..
what i found is
we average human now (unlike Malcolm X) always think scientifically sometimes we forget the real meaning of humanity.
the more u argue,the more wandered u be?
cos everytime i argue with them
i cannot feel the peace anymore
wether in my heart and my mind
then i figure Lord havent made us for war
i mean should all this be hate?
i saw some man agenda to put islam in one side and the others at different side..
i saw this!!
and clearly in this end of the day
maybe we Muslim also split..
because something coming in future isnt part of knowledge
so just keep peace and remains peace
Your criticisms were “singularly ineffectual,” prof_ridcully, because they did not at all address the points made. Whether or not readers whose minds are made up anyway approve of your argumentation is irrelevant, since their minds are made up anyway. Others however would not be convinced, since you did not discuss the actual issues.
It is accepted generally that Ad hominem (personal) attacks against the authors of articles are invalid ways of refuting their statements, because then the statements still stand and have not been addressed, but they are a common response by biased critics when they cannot refute the actual articles themselves. But you did not even do that. Instead you made an ad hominen attack against someone else entirely (!) who had nothing to do with Yemini’ or his devastatingly well-documented and factual account of Muslim-Jewish relations. You dealt not at all with any of Yemini’s points. Or rather, you pretended they did not even exist. For you go on to state again, as a generally accepted truth, what Yemini disproved through citation of actual history, namely that Muslim Spain was a time of happy Muslim-Jewish relations. It looks as if you had not even bothered to read Yemini and did not know what he said. You probably looked at the article, read a few lines, and refused to go any further because the truth upset you.
Then you claimed that I said that Arabs are Nazis in their genes, racially Nazi. I said no such thing, and now even when I explicitly restate my actual claims, you disregard them. For your information, no one is racially Nazi. They come to be so through evil teachings, not through the genes; Nazism like Communism is an ideology, not a tribe, and so the Nazis did in fact have major Arab and other races enrolled in their ideology during World War II. You simply refuse to accept my clarifications, but saying I said something when I did not, however many times you repeat it, does not make it so.
And when I speak of Muslim antisemitism, you change the subject entirely to Christian antisemitic claims (mythological in nature, too, by the way – the actual Jesus and the Jesus Christ of the Christian account are two different figures, one historical, the other fictional, and “the Jews” of the fictional account did not kill Jesus but in historical truth the Romans did: e.g. crucifixion as a matter of fact is forbidden in Jewish law, but was standard for Roman executions). But even so, taking the fiction as truth for the sake of argument, if someone in the Muslim world sought to lead a political or religious movement by claiming that they were equal to God or actually God himself, as Jesus is made to claim in the Gospel of John, would not Muslim law demand his execution? So it is odd of you to demonize Jews for doing the same. What you are really doing is proving again the presence of Muslim antisemitism, which in this case does not even deny its own existence but as its only response merely seeks to bolster itself by citing Christian antisemitism.
Not all websites are equal, prof_ridcully. Some are filled with falsehoods, others present reality. So your refusal even to read scholarly articles on sites that do not agree with you already, that are supportive of Jews and Israel, is merely bigotry. The websites I linked to are not “dubious,” nor do they indulge themselves in the crass and mythological personal slanders you recommend. They offer serious analyses of the issues.
All in all, in one matter after another, singularly and even amazingly ineffectual arguments, prof_ridcully. They infallibly miss the point, time after time, or even prove the arguments of their opponents.
Dear qwe, Assalamalaikum.
Your analogy question is like that:
“By qwe on June 16, 2009 1:10 PM
In the name of Allah The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.
Let’s take another analogy. Suppose that you were living happily in your house along with your family. Then one day someone came over and called your house , let’s say for this case, his “Promised House”, and kicked you and your family out.
How would you react, then?”
Let me try to answer you with a counter analogy. Suppose you have a family and you are living in a home which is your asset for many generations (Jews). One day, a band of gangsters (Romans) are coming into your home without an invitation, slaughter members of your family, breaking all windows and the door and taking you against your will and sending you away to another far place without allowing you to return back home. Your home stands now lorn with broken windows and crooked door for the wind and rain hostility. Your neighbors (Muslim invadors) who noticed your absence, took the advantage of it and knowing the possibility that your returning home is zero, invaded into your asset and start living in your home. Then after many years you managed to find your way back to your home you remembered. When you came back home, you noticed that your neighbor is living in your genuine home. You feel somehow confused. It is your home but your neighbor is now living there. You don’t want to throw him out of your home and asked if you can build your new home just in the backyard. Just on a fracture of the backyard. Wasn’t the home and backyard belong to you?
But your neighbor is ungrateful to you and just started beating you while you placed your bags on the floor. He started to beat you and shout on you to get out of your home right away without even wanting to listen to you. You are feeling very humiliated by your neighbor who lives now in your home.
What should you do?
Hanan, Jewish,
Israel.
Tempered,
I won’t tax Dr Mahathir’s patience so I’ll make it short. But you really need to change your style of argument.
//My postings have even been attacked by prof_ridculy in a singularly ineffectual way.//
Well, I don’t know if I have been ineffectual. Have you done a survey to ascertain this?
//He takes….extends them to conclusions I did not state at all nor imply//
Yes you did imply them. By quoting Mallmann and Cüppers whose study was to prove the association between Arabs and Nazis, you indirectly implied what I in my conclusions.
//I spoke of a long history and indeed culture of antisemitism which has its roots not in genes at all but in religious teachings derived from the Qur’an and elaborated by later mainstream Muslim authorities.//
No more sinister than the treatment of Jesus by the Jews. “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” (King James, John 5:18).
Your version of history starts with the Old Testament, skips a millenium and a half after Jesus and pops up again in the eraly 20th century.
//The link provided as evidence that David Horowitz is unreliable is to an article which itself is highly biased on the face of it, extremely partisan and even slanderous//
And the sites you recommended (Likud Holland and FrontPage mag) are not?
My point is, Tempered, you’re not the only one who can play the game of quoting dubious websites and overly long articles and treating them as “facts” in order to state your case.
To Hanan, thank you for your generous comments! I appreciate them very much. As this blog demonstrates, it is a lonely task you seem to have set yourself, trying to find some friendly bridge to the Muslim world. I support you in that, in a much less intensive way admittedly since my time is limited for such internet dialogue. But I acknowledge that you are courageous to pursue it, and it must seem to you that even the smallest bricks you lay down to found the bridge are torn away time after time. So it takes great heart and determination to continue. More power to you and all like you, including those apparently few and nearly voiceless Muslims willing to hear you sympathetically! They do exist, as I too can testify, even if often only expressing themselves privately, and perhaps their courage is greater because of the intimidating climate of extremism around them. Nevertheless, great bridges are only built stone by stone, brick by brick, and each contribution matters even when it seems not to. A further thought to give us both heart for the task: the history of the modern period shows that again and again the extremist and absolutistic ideological movements seem to impose themselves at first both on their own populations and elsewhere, but their very extremism and absolutism is the cause of their defeat: it prevents them from realizing the virtues and true resources of their enemies, or the faults and things needing real reform of themselves. Lacking this self-critical, morally responsible and empathetic realism, they believe their own propaganda mythologies, their self-glorifications and other-demonizations, overextend themselves and crash before their enemies, as with Nazi Germany, and/or lose the allegiance of their own captive populations who become utterly disillusioned and overthrow their authority, as in the case of the Soviet Union and most other Communist countries. This has already occurred in Iraq and Algeria in response to extremist jihadi Islam; uprisings, probably for now crushed, are presently occurring in Iran, and there will be more of this in the future. The time will come when a majority of Muslims will accept that their chief enemy lies within and is uncritical extremism, and only empathetic tolerance of others, and self-critical moral responsibility, offer the hope of escaping this black hole that can cost too many of their own lives, and even swallow up entire societies.
I have not responded to other posters on this blog, because I thought that the thread had died out by the passage of time, and also because I thought that the central issue was Dr. Mahathir’s essay, not other issues. Apparently I was wrong. My postings have even been attacked by prof_ridculy in a singularly ineffectual way. There were certainly comments I did wish to make on some other posts which I held off doing, which with Dr. Mahathir’s kind permission I will do here.
First, for the easiest and briefest part, dealing with prof_ridculy. He takes various points I made, and instead of addressing them, mockingly extends them to conclusions I did not state at all nor imply, and then lambasts these straw-men he has created. For example, I did not say that antisemitism is part of Arab genetic make-up, nor did I imply it. I spoke of a long history and indeed culture of antisemitism which has its roots not in genes at all but in religious teachings derived from the Qur’an and elaborated by later mainstream Muslim authorities. This, I stressed, while bad enough in itself, was much intensified by Nazi influences of the past century and also by modern but essentially primitive nationalistic passions offering a convenient way of blaming non-Muslims for the dysfunctionality of modern Muslim states and societies, through demonizing the only independent non-Muslim country in the Middle East. This antisemitism has thereby almost become synonymous with Islamic self-assertion and pride today. So we witness today antisemitism even in non-Arab Muslim countries where there has been next to no historical Jewish presence, and even relatively little practical antisemitism at all. To document this sort of view, one can cite the authoritative and highly regarded Pew Global Attitudes Survey of 2006, which summarized attitudes to Jews around the world by saying:
“Approval ratings for Jews remain strongly positive throughout the West, with the exception of Spain, where the favorability number has dropped to 45% from 58% a year ago. In the Muslim world, attitudes toward Jews remain starkly negative, including virtually unanimous unfavorable ratings of 98% in Jordan and 97% in Egypt. [Summarizing other data in the Survey: In Indonesia, 17% have a favorable opinion of Jews, 6% in Pakistan, and 15% in Turkey.]
“Muslims living in Western countries have a more moderate view of Jews – still more negative than positive, but not nearly by the lopsided margins that prevail in Muslim countries. The Muslims in France are a special case: 71% have a positive view of Jews. This is the only Muslim population or sub-population surveyed whose opinion of Jews is more favorable than not.”
The same Survey also shows Muslim views of Christians to be negative, even if to a lesser degree.
The claim that the Muslim demonization is only of Zionism, not of Jews generally, is no more true in the Muslim case than it is elsewhere, and most Muslims do not make the distinction even hypocritically. If there is to be hope for a more peaceful world such biases and demonizations must be frankly faced in the Muslim world, and replaced by more friendly attitudes and beliefs. And if it is said in response that the Qur’an prohibits such friendly beliefs and practices, and therefore no real Muslim can be friends with Jews and Christians, then I take it that my point is proven. But then Muslims generally must not be surprised if they are criticised for intolerance and aggressive hostility. Their own attitudes help to create this response.
prof_ridculy also asserts that Jews lived happily in Muslim lands before Israel was established, sometimes seeking refuge there from Christian persecutions and he especially instances Muslim Spain. It is true that on a number of occasions Jews were able to find refuge from Christian persecutions in Muslim lands, most notably following the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492 when the Ottoman Empire gladly took in the cream of Spanish culture, whose skills in fact aided the expansion of the empire and the extension of its trade. But in general the picture is a lot less rosy. E.g., he mentions the “Golden Age” of Muslim Spain as a period of tolerance, and this is a very common assertion. But then how to explain that, as Ben-Dror Yemini put it in the article I linked to my post, but which prof_ridculy has apparently not bothered to read,
“In 1011 in Cordoba, Spain, under Muslim rule, there were pogroms in which, according to various estimates, from hundreds to thousands were murdered. In 1066 in Granada, Yosef Hanagid was executed, along with between 4,000 and 6,000 other Jews. One of the worst periods of all began in 1148, when the Almohad dynasty came to power (al Muwahhiden), and ruled Spain and North Africa during the 12th and 13th centuries.”
To the south, in Morocco, during the same period
“In 1033, in the city of Fez, 6,000 Jews were murdered by a Muslim mob. The rise of the Almohad dynasty caused waves of mass murders. According to testimony from that time, 100,000 Jews were slaughtered in Fez and about 120,000 in Marrakesh (this testimony should be viewed with caution).”
Caution or not, the slaughters were monumental, and they did not just occur under the Almohades, but continued down in more local form down through the centuries. There were several in 19th century Ottoman Syria-Palestine, well before Zionism arose. But I need not go on. The link, again, for those willing to read it, is: http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/05/ben-dror-yemini-the-jewish-nakba-expulsi/index.shtml
prof_ridculy is also upset that I did not mention Jewish “terrorist” movements in British Mandate Palestine in the 30s. This I take as an admission that there was no “Jewish terrorism” during the 20s, or early 30s, despite many ghastly and large terrorist atrocities committed by Haj Amin el-Hussaini’s gangster groups against Jews. However, the highly biased and emotive link he provides does list some alleged terrorist acts by Jews from 1937 on. Why then? The site does not mention that the period from 1937-39 was a time when there was unremitting, intense Arab terrorism not only against Jews, but also against the British, in which many Jewish civilians were killed. It was almost a civil war situation. The terrorists were led and coordinated by none other than the very Hai Amin el-Hussaini of whom I have written in earlier posts; he was financed in part by Nazi Germany. In reprisal against some of those attacks some very small and non-mainstream Jewish groups attacked Arabs. In comparison to the Arab terrorism these were few and far between, but they were still repudiated and condemned by the mainstream Jewish community, which continued to practice “restraint.” Moreover, many of the Jewish attacks claimed by prof_ridculy, or rather by his linked website, did not occur as claimed, and that applies with even greater force to the later list of supposed “terrorist” acts: they are falsely described.
prof_ridculy evidently did read the article by Ben-Dror Yemini on the FrontPageMagazine.com website, but refused to absorb it at all, as his comments on Jews in Muslim lands indicate. But he tries to disqualify the article, not by any actual debate with specific points, nor even remarks about the author, but by personal attacks on another person altogether who with very many others is associated with and contributes to that website. It is obvious that the contributions of one person cannot be undermined by attacks against someone else entirely, but evidently prof_ridculy thinks this smear tactic is his only defense. However, it must also be pointed out that the attack itself is baseless, too. The link provided as evidence that David Horowitz is unreliable is to an article which itself is highly biased on the face of it, extremely partisan and even slanderous. Although the article is in a pretend-Wikipedia model, it is not a Wikipedia website article, and there is no pretence of balance or objectivity. It is largely worthless.
Now to other matters. Some posters on this site are full-blown believers in and advocates for the evil-Jewish-world-conspiracy myth. The thesis is ludicrous on the face of it. We are asked to believe that behind the whole of the past two centuries of history, the entire modern era, including all the world wars, the rise of capitalism and of Communism, and even the rise of the Nazis whose non-existent Holocaust was devised to provide an excuse for Israel, and so on, all of this, we must believe, is due to the cunning manipulations of a few wealthy Jews, with the Rothschilds at their head. They fiendishly understood and shaped history with undeviating success. Ordinary people find in daily life that their best prepared plans fail quite often, and even leaders of nations cannot force their will permanently on their people or rivals, but these failures only apply to non-Jews, not to the Elders of Zion Magically, their projects never failed, and even seeming setbacks were all part of the plan, so that everything can be explained by their own sinister plots.
In effect, they were the only real people in history. Everyone else was almost criminally stupid and naive, aimless and foolish, without goals or aims of their own nor any energy to pursue them, apparently mere paper cut-outs who merely bend in the wind. Even the also wealthy and even more numerous other bankers in Europe, the great majority of whom were rivals to the alleged Jewish finaniciers and who had their own diverse agendas, and many of whom were even outright antisemites themselves, had no effect on the fate of economies and nations. The kings and generals might sign their treaties and fight their wars, people might kill and die in pursuit of their goals – it was all a charade; they were just paper puppets without lives of their own. None of this counted. The puppets were marched this way and that by those mysterious elders of Zion.
The allegations made by various posters to this blog are simply false. Not only do they falsify the specific history of the Rothschilds, making free use of random association and inventions, malicious construction of specific events, and so on, even denying the diversity of goals and personalities amongst that family down through the generations, they also deny the diversity of goals and views amongst both Jews and non-Jews during the same period. Some Rothschilds, for example, were Zionists, and others anti-Zionist, in the founding days of that movement. Etc. Such extreme and paranoid simplification of the reality we all face of diversity and complexity is truly insane. Of course, one cannot reason with the insane. They are incapable of absorbing facts that do not conform to their fixed ways of thinking. Unfortunately, whole populations can fall prey to these paranoid simplifications, however, and the Jews have in particular suffered from that, with too many good, decent and kind people being killed on that account. But not only Jews suffer this. So does the entire world. The Nazis killed many more non-Jews than Jews, although not with such sadism and systematic bureaucratic thoroughness. Muslims too are finding that similar paranoia by for example Palestinian terrorists, or al-Qaeda and the Taliban, etc., ends up with suicide bombers killing Muslims in mosques, and whole Muslim countries being ripped to shreds.
By the way, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are fiction. Based on evidence repeatedly corroborated by British, German, Ukrainian, Polish and Russian sources over a 75 year period, The Protocols, far from being a “discovered” document as it was claimed to be, was in fact deliberately fabricated sometime between 1895 and 1902 by Russian journalist Matvei Golovinski, working for the Tsarist secret police. It was written in a clumsy fashion, taking entire paragraphs and pages from a novel written in 1864 by Maurice Joly against Napoleon Bonaparte, entitled The Dialogue in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu. It presents conversations in Hell between Napoleon and these others, giving what Napoleon allegedly planned to do in the world.
For more detail, see the Wikipedia article “Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”
Good morning Ayahanda Tun,
Please allow me to make a comment on
//By Hanan on June 15, 2009 3:37 PM
Dear friend Tempered,
I don’t know who you are and from where you are. It really doesn’t matter.
You are really GREAT and very well knowledgeable in history with an objective analysis.
Thank you for the enlightening facts and support.
I salute you.//
Dear Hanan,
By knowing only history and objective analysis may drive you no where if you do not know the technics to implement and solving the problems. We are human being, if violence and money cannot solve human behaviour problems, then we we have to look elsewhere for the solution. Now we have courses in “pychology” to study human behaviour patterns, if this absurd behaviour cannot be solved, then we need to have medicine to cure this behaviour, and and that’s why we study pychiatry (medicine + pyschology). By using violence and “money” (power) will not stop solve the world problem and when it involves religion, I can say that it is almost impossible to solve the conflict. Hanan, do you believe that “bread turned into rats?”
The way you guys argue is like singing the famous song by Bee Gees – “Jive Talking” and I translate the title to “Jai Talking” means talk only, no action or USA call it NATO (Never Act Talk Only).
Cheers & take care,
HBT, Chinese (not buddhist)
Malaysia
Tamil,
This thread is about Obama’s speech and Palestine. Can we discuss Sri Lanka elsewhere?
// Worst is they we’re make it as 2nd class citizen. No Tamils allowed to be included in Army or Police force.//
BTW what you said is not exactly correct. Wiki Article
Your words on US-ISRAEL tie true..
But, our present leader is keep silent from any comment about this..
No voice as a representative Asean Islamic country..
Is it our leader now not aware with global issues…
I miss the time that you smashed the world about their support on Israel but not with Palestine.
Could you please make it right back…
Thanks…
Dear Dr. Mahathir,
After reading “vulcan”‘s reccomendation about Douglas Reed, please spare just 10 minutes to read Rory Miller’s research about the roots of those people like Douglas Reed and such as him from the UK.
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British Anti-Zionism Then and Now
By Rory Miller
Abstract: Though separated by over half a century and many differences in the cultural, political and technological environments in which they have operated, a close examination of the facts makes it apparent that today’s British anti-Zionists and today’s British anti-Zionist bodies share many characteristics with their predecessors who were active in opposing Zionist aspirations in the years prior to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. This article draws out these similarities, in particular the common arguments that both current and past British anti-Zionists have used to demonize and de-legitimize Zionism. It then examines how this little noted phenomenon throws light on the motives and objectives of today’s anti-Zionist activists.
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President Harry Truman, an avid student of history, once noted that “the only thing new in this world is the history that you don’t know.” I have been reminded of Truman’s observation a lot in recent years while following the resurgence of anti-Zionism in Britain.
For despite the relentless protestations of Israel’s most vocal and devoted enemies that their efforts are the sincere response of well-meaning individuals to a set of concrete and actual Israeli wrongs carried out since the breakdown of the Oslo peace process in late 2000 (the building of the “apartheid” Wall, the “massacre” at Jenin etc.), the truth is that the motivations of many of the most active anti-Zionists now are the same as those of anti-Zionists prior to the establishment of the Jewish State in 1948. To put it bluntly–anti-Zionists of the pre-1948 vintage worked to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state by demonizing the Zionist movement, whereas the current crop of anti-Zionists work to destroy the Jewish state, by demonizing Israeli policies and actions.
Of course the specific nature and identity of today’s anti-Zionists, not to mention the intellectual and political resources on which they draw, differ from their predecessors of over half a century ago. Though, interestingly, both present and past anti-Zionist movements can claim a number of prominent Churchmen in their ranks, today’s anti-Zionist movement is led by a peculiar alliance of Leftists, Islamists, anti-Globalists, and self-proclaimed “peace” activists. Whereas, the most influential, and active, anti-Zionists in Britain prior to 1948 were former colonial officers, missionaries, members of parliament, and scholars–in other words members of the British establishment.
But despite the fact that the schooling, outlook and politics of these two groups could hardly be more different, and the fact that the strategic and technological environment in which they operate has changed substantially, both present and past anti-Zionists have been linked together in a complex web of overlapping and co-operating organizations–some very public, some discreet, but all prepared (in the words of Sir Ronald Storrs, a leading anti-Zionist of the 1930s and 1940s), to “devote time, brains and cash” to the Arab cause in Palestine.
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British Anti-Zionists Now
The most active, and significant, anti-Zionist body in Britain today is the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). It can claim almost 40 regional branches in the UK alone and has active affiliates in a number of countries. According to its website, it is the “most active campaigning organization in the UK on the issue of Palestine. We aim to build an effective mass campaign, organizing protests, political lobbying and raising public awareness”.
But in truth, the PSC is more preoccupied with isolating and demonizing Israel than it is in promoting Palestinian rights. It is at the forefront of the wide-ranging attempt to de-legitimize Israel by working for an economic, academic and cultural boycott of the country. It sponsors the Boycott Israeli Goods (BIG) campaign, which targets agricultural and hi-tech exports to the UK. It has lent its moral and public support to various other campaigns ranging from the efforts of Architects and Planners for Justice in Palestine (APJP) to get an economic boycott of Israel’s construction industry; to the temporarily successful efforts of anti-Zionist academics to get the AUT, Britain’s biggest university teachers union, to break all ties with Haifa University and Bar-Ilan University in 2005.
The PSC has also played a key role in mobilizing opinion in favor of divestment from companies that “provide products, services, or technology, that sustain, support or maintain the occupation of the Palestinian Territories.” In particular, it has waged a relentless campaign against Caterpillar, the machinery manufacturer, which is accused of providing Israel with machinery used in the demolition of Palestinian property and in building the security barrier. In 2005 nine anti-Israel activists including members of the PSC were arrested for protesting outside Caterpillar’s British headquarters.
The PSC also supported those within the Church of England who in 2006 (again temporarily) succeeded in getting the General Synod of the Church of England to agree to support the disinvestment from Caterpillar and other companies “profiting from the illegal occupation… until they change their policies.”
The churchmen, “peace” activists, Jewish opponents of Israel, and full-time British anti-Israel agitators who work together under the PSC umbrella, have been joined by a number of NGOs and Christian groups including The Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Centre. Founded in 1990, and currently headed by Rev. Dr. Naim Stifan Ateek, former canon of St. George’s Cathedral in Jerusalem, it is a fiercely anti-Zionist body that has, like the PSC, been at the forefront of the effort to get mainstream Protestant churches to divest from Israel.
As is the case in other European countries, Britain’s increasingly influential Muslim community also plays a central role in the current anti-Zionist movement. As Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, perhaps the leading representative body of British Muslims, has explained:
Despite their many differences and political persuasions, Muslims scholars are united and resolute about one issue. They agree that the question of Palestine and the status of Jerusalem is the foremost international concern on the agenda of Muslims…The Muslim Council of Britain, therefore, views the illegal occupation of Jerusalem as a Muslim issue and not as a Palestinian issue.
This pre-occupation with Palestine among British Muslims has provided the opportunity for radical groups within the Muslim world to gain a foothold on a national level. A clear example of this is the success of MPAC–the Muslim Public Affairs Committee. It was only established in January 2005, as a non-profit organization relying on private donations for its upkeep. In its early days it was manned by volunteers who had full-time jobs. It saw the May 2005 British parliamentary elections as a real opportunity to promote an Islamist political agenda among the 1.6 million strong British Muslim population.
It targeted two groups–the established older leadership of Britain’s numerous Muslim communities and members of parliament who were viewed as pro-Israel and pro-war in Iraq. MPAC had a superb election. After less than six months in existence and with no full time employees it could reasonably claim responsibility for the defeat of at least two sitting MPs whom it targeted as “anti-Muslim” and it also reduced the vote of other MPs in targeted constituencies with large Muslim populations. By the time of the election it could claim five million hits on its web site, had hired its first full-time staff and was gearing up for its future role in both the Muslim community and in national politics. Not surprisingly, anti-Zionism is at the heart of MPAC’s platform–it supports a one-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, which it has termed an “MPAC solution for the Middle East”. To underlines this, in October 2006 an MPAC advertisement for a conference celebrating the sixth anniversary of the Al Aqsa intifada talked of the 58 years of occupation of Palestine by Zionists (i.e. the Zionist occupation not only of the West Bank and Gaza, but also of those lands included in a Jewish state by the UN in 1947).
The antisemitic extreme right, urged on by a deep hatred of Jews and Israel, that in many cases surpasses its anti-Islamic xenophobia, is also at the forefront of the current anti-Zionist movement in Britain. One recent example of this phenomenon is the decision of David Myatt to change his name to Abdul Aziz ibn Myatt, and to embrace radical Islam in the belief that it alone could challenge Zionism and the West. Myatt was a founder of the British National Socialist Movement and a former leader of the British Neo-Nazi group Combat 18 (named after the place where the initials of Adolf Hitler’s first and last names come in the alphabet).
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British Anti-Zionists Then
All this may appear to be a far cry from the anti-Zionist efforts of the pre-1948 era. Certainly, there has been a concerted effort by opponents of Israel to explain the Zionist success in gaining a state in 1948 in terms of the complete lack of opposition that they faced in Britain. As Christopher (later, Lord) Mayhew, a junior minister at the Foreign Office in the Labor government of the late 1940s, and an ardent anti-Zionist, once explained–prior to 1967 the effort of Englishmen to explain the Arab point of view consisted simply of “the spontaneous initiatives of a few courageous men.”
Mayhew’s claim has no basis in reality. In the crucial years between 1937 and 1948 at least seven bodies were established in London to co-ordinate the anti-Zionist effort–the late 1930s saw the establishment of the Palestine Information Centre (PIC) and the Arab Centre; while the years between 1945 and 1948 saw the establishment of the Middle East Parliamentary Committee (MEPC), the Committee for Arab Affairs (CAA), the Anglo-Arab Friendship Society, the Arab Office, London, and the Arab Friendship Committee.
It is true that unlike the current anti-Zionist effort spearheaded by the PSC, which appeals first and foremost to public opinion, these bodies were primarily elitist both in terms of membership and in their efforts to oppose Zionist goals among policy and opinion makers. But it is also true that groups like the PIC and the CAA also looked to influence public opinion by promoting national campaigns, gaining access to the media to present their anti-Zionist views and by attempting to influence the political debate on the fate of Palestine–according to its 1937 charter one of the PIC’s goals was “supplying information to the press and influential persons on the Palestine issue.” Moreover, like these earlier bodies, the PSC has the support of a number of very public figures (the PSC’s patrons include present and former MPs and members of the House of Lords, journalists, members of the church, academics, actors, peace activists and writers).
Most notable, in these terms, was the Committee for Arab Affairs (CAA). Founded in 1945 and secretly financed by the Arab embassies in London and the Arab League, its membership list reads like a “Who’s Who” of the British Middle Eastern establishment. It was headed by Sir Edward Spears, a former MP and British ambassador in Syria and Lebanon. Apart from a number of high-profile parliamentarians from both the Conservative and Labor benches, its members included Sir Ronald Storrs, Governor of Jerusalem from 1920-1926; Sir John Hope-Simpson, the refugee and land settlement expert and author of the anti-Zionist Hope-Simpson Report of 1930; Colonel SF Newcombe, a contemporary of Lawrence of Arabia in the Great War who represented the Hashemites in London in the 1930s; the missionary and campaigner for women’s rights, Dr. Maude Royden Shaw; the theologian Rev. Professor Alfred Guillaume; the Oxford Orientalist G.R. Driver; the journalists Kenneth Williams, London editor of the Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram, and Nevill Barbour the first editor of the BBC publication the Arab Listener, who retired in 1956 as assistant head of the BBC Eastern Service.
Among those who supported the anti-Zionist efforts of the body, but felt unable to join due to official responsibilities, were Lord Altrincham, Minister Resident in the Middle East; Sir Harold MacMichael, High Commissioner for Palestine, 1938-1944; General Sir Robert Haining, Commanding Officer of British Forces in Palestine and Transjordan, 1938-1939 and Vice-Chairman of the Imperial General Staff, 1940-41; and Sir Kinahan Cornwallis, British Ambassador to Iraq.
The efforts of other anti-Zionist bodies of the pre-1948 era also highlight that neither the Islamists nor the far-Right are new recruits to the British anti-Zionist effort. In 1937, at the height of the Arab Revolt, the founder of the Palestine Information Centre, Frances Newton, Dame Justice of the Order of Jerusalem, daughter of a former Consul-General in Beirut and herself a retired Anglican missionary, traveled to Palestine to discuss the future of anti-Zionist strategies in Britain with the PIC’s patron, the notorious Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, instigator of the bloody Arab Revolt and war-time ally of Hitler.
On her visit it was agreed that the anti-Zionist effort in London would be directly responsible to the mufti and his Jerusalem based Arab Higher Committee. From that point on the PIC and later the Arab Centre was staffed primarily by Arabs living in London loyal the mufti’s brand of anti-British and anti-Jewish sentiment. The PIC worked so closely with the mufti that by 1939 its leaders were barred from entering Palestine by the British government. While back in London Arab members of the PIC and Arab Centre became heavily involved with some of the most extreme British antisemitic movements.
On a number of occasions in the late 1930s, the PIC’s George Mansur, an ally of the mufti who had been vice president of the Arab Labor Union in Jaffa before moving to London, wooed the pro-Nazi and antisemitic Nordic League, with his arguments on how Britain was dominated by “Jewish gold” and how its government was dominated by Jewish power.
While a decade later in 1948 the Arab League in London was approached by a group known as the Arab Friendship Committee, which under the motto of Kultur, Kraftmanship and Knowledge, declared the goal of ‘Arab friendship and a solution to their problems’ and blamed the Jews for “our plight”, advocating close Anglo-Arab collaboration on the grounds that unlike Jews:
Arabs do not eat our food, operate black market in scarce commodities… [and] have not descended like a swarm of locusts. They are not parasites who bleed this nation white in times of national emergency…Arab capitalists do not engineer world wars and profit by the misfortune of others.
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Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism Then and Now
It is hardly surprising that presently, as was the case in the pre-1948 era, analyzing anti-Zionism as a product of antisemitism has been attacked as ‘Jewish oversensitivity’, and a most unfair weapon in the debate over Palestine. Nor is it surprising that anti-Zionists, past and present, have devoted much energy in distancing themselves from any charge that their opposition to Zionism was, and is, motivated by antisemitism.
In 1943, Freya Stark, a leading anti-Zionist of the era, as well as a famed Arabian adventurer and government propagandist put it like this:
An opponent of Zionism may be an anti-Semite: but he may just as easily not be so. In 1943, there was no anti-Semitism in British opposition: there was indeed so much sympathy for the Jews as such that it impeded our natural defenses against what had brought about an Arab war and was now threatening Anglo-American relations.
But, as David Ceserani has convincingly shown, as far back as the early 1920s the most outspoken supporters of the Palestinian Arab cause in London were individuals hostile to Jewry, such as William Joyson Hicks, Capt C. Foxcroft, and Lords Sydenham, Amptill and Lamington. The pro-mufti Frances Newton was by all accounts ‘incurably anti-Jewish’ (as the moderate Zionist Norman Bentwich described her) and her anti-Zionist efforts were supported by a number of notorious Jew-haters including Douglas Reed, Captain Alan Graham, the Earl of Norbury and Lady Makins all of whom joined the Anglo-Arab Friendship Committee which Newton founded in 1946 to oppose Zionism in England. The committee preoccupied itself in these years with providing a virulent defense of the “much-maligned” mufti, even going so far as to make excuses for his collaboration with the Nazi regime.
Now that the archives are, for the most part, open for the period prior to 1948, we can see for ourselves whether the popular claim of anti-Zionists of the period that their views on Palestine had nothing to do with antisemitism are indeed true. Take George Mansur of the PIC. As noted above, he was a regular speaker in front of the antisemitic Nordic League in London, where behind closed doors he was so extreme that after one speech a listener praised the “clear cut lead” that Mansur had given to his audience, who should “adopt the methods of the Arab. Extermination is the only solution to the Jew problem in Palestine and he could think of no better for this country.” But in public Mansur took a different tack. In a letter to The Times, for example, around the same time, he was compassion personified, even making an appeal for the West to rescue “600 Jewish refugees” stranded in a steamer of Smyrna after being refused entry to Palestine.
Freya Stark is a similar case. Despite numerous public protestations to the contrary, her private correspondence from the 1920s-1940s, is full of statements that are extremely derogatory to both Jews and Judaism. In 1931 she informed Robert Stark that “I don’t think that anyone but a Jew can really like a Jew.” In 1940, during a trip to San’a, she felt it necessary to write to a relative that “the Jews here are so ugly; their eyes so spaniel soft, their manner so deprecating…these miserable people have been thinking over their wrongs ever since Titus wiped the temple floor with them.” Her antipathy towards Jews was so intense that when, during a visit to the United States in 1943, she made acquaintance with Jews she actually liked it caused her concern. Confiding in a friend after attending a dinner where several Jews were present:
The distressing thing is that I like the Jews I meet here and have to argue with, almost better than anyone else I see, and there was a most disarming mixture of sharpness, kindness and humor about the Rabbi. But the little man on my right…Kaplan…made me long for a pet pogrom of my own before we were through the soup…I believe they…don’t know how objectionable they are.
Moreover, Stark, despite her parroting of the hugely popular anti-Zionist argument both then and now that Zionism and Judaism are very different, was also guilty of intertwining the two.
I really can’t see that there is any kind of way of dealing with the Zionist question except by a massacre now and then. What can we do? It is the ruthless last penny that they squeeze out of you that does it…the world has chosen to massacre them at intervals, and whose fault is it?
Likewise, the renowned suffragette and missionary Maude Royden-Shaw, another leading female anti-Zionist of the 1940s, who told listeners to a BBC radio debate on Palestine in 1945 that “my being anti-Zionist does not mean that I am an anti-Semite,” spoke privately in similar terms to Stark. In a letter of 1947
I do dread outbursts of anti-Semitism in this country…we must be a population of angels since rioting hasn’t broken out long ago, since we are so angelic I don’t want to stain our record, by senseless revenge on a probably perfectly innocent people, at the same time I confess I wonder we haven’t done much worse and much more’.
Or take the 1946 private correspondence from two leading members of the CAA–the theologian Rev. Professor Alfred Guillaume and MP Henry Longhurst to the committee’s chairman Sir Edward Spears. Guillaume, perhaps the leading academic theologian in the country, wrote to Spears to say that under no circumstances should the CAA support opening up England to Jews as an alternative to allowing them into Palestine on the grounds that: “Everywhere one hears complaints about their behavior, their control of industry and finance and their very increasing weight in the universities. I am not anti-Jewish myself, but I confess I do not want to see this country dominated by Jews.” A view echoed by Longhurst who added that if Jews were allowed into the country there was “a serious chance of our national stock being affected.”
As the archives housing their private views and explaining their public motivations will remain closed for many decades to come, we must take today’s anti-Zionists at their word that they are not motivated in their anti-Zionism by antisemitism. But one thing is for sure. As Labor MP Denis McShane, the head of an all-party parliamentary committee on antisemitism that reported in 2006, recently noted “Jew baiting behavior that would have had the Left outraged in the 1930s is now actively encouraged by an unholy alliance of the hard Left and Islamist fundamentalists, and the odious anti-Semites.” And there is no doubt that many of those whom McShane draws attention to are also at the forefront of the British anti-Zionist effort.
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Anti-Zionist Arguments Then and Now: Zionism is Nazism
One of the most notable, if despicable, current British anti-Zionist arguments is that Israel is a fascist, Nazi state–think of poet Tom Paulin’s description of Israelis living in the West Bank as “Nazis, racists…I feel nothing but hatred for them” and the numerous placards equating the Jewish Star of David with the Nazi Swastika that are a staple at every anti-war, anti-globalization and pro-Palestinian rally. What is interesting here is that such comparisons of Zionism to Nazism have been part of the British anti-Zionist arsenal since the mid-1940s. During World War II a memorandum circulated among British Zionist leaders correctly predicted that after the war opponents of Zionism would engage in a strategy of presenting the Zionists as “Jewish Nazis” as a way of obstructing Jewish aspirations in Palestine.
Since that time accusations against Zionists have included an ideological identification with Nazism; active contact with Nazis; avoidance of a militant stance against Nazism until the late stages of World War II; the willing abandonment of Europe’s Jews to Nazis; and the inheritance of the Nazi mantle in the post-war era. One notorious early comparison of Zionism to Nazism was made by Arnold Toynbee in the eight volume of his monumental A Study of History. This analogy was born out of his view of the similarity in the way that the Zionists treated Palestinians in and after the 1948 War with the way that the Nazis had treated the Jews in Europe. However, Toynbee was not alone. Writing in 1943 a senior official at the British Embassy in Baghdad, explained that there is a “powerful Jewish organization in Palestine that is run on Fascist lines and Nazi principles… Jewish refugees from the Nazi’s Fascist tyranny in Europe have introduced into Palestine a good few of the methods employed to regiment the German masses by Himmler’s hoodlums.”
In 1945, with the ashes of the Jews of Auschwitz barely cold, Sir Edward Grigg (Lord Altrincham), British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and an associate of the CAA, warned a Cairo press conference of the “establishment of a kind of Nazi gangsterism in the Holy Land.” Sir Edward Spears, head of the CAA, expanded on Grigg’s view: “political Zionism as it is manifested in Palestine today preaches very much the same doctrines as Hitler,” continuing “Zionist policy in Palestine has many features similar to Nazi philosophy…the politics of Herrenvolk…the Nazi idea of Lebensraum, is also very in evidence in the Zionist philosophy…the training of youth is very similar under both organizations that have designed this one and the Nazi one.”
In a 1947 talk at the prestigious Royal Institute of International Affairs in London, Robin Maugham, a well-known commentator on the Middle East and the son of the former British cabinet minister, followed Spears in providing a detailed list of the similarities between Zionism and Nazism and in particular drew attention to: “the stare of hatred…the patriotic songs…the pride and confidence…are all the same as in the Germany of Hitler.” In 1947 the Histadrut protested to the High Commissioner because the military prosecutor in an arms smuggling trial referred in court to the “Nazi discipline” maintained by the Histadrut.
These are just a few of the numerous comparisons of Zionism to Nazism in the 1940s, a period prior even to the establishment of Israel. Indeed, so central was the Zionist/Nazi analogy to anti-Zionist polemics during this period that in 1945 the distinguished theologian and historian of Judaism Rev. Dr James Parkes lamented that it was an argument “which I have heard too often.”
The truth is, of course, that neither Zionist actions in Palestine pre-1948 nor Israeli actions since that time have anything in common with the horrors carried out by Germany during the Nazi occupation of Europe. Nor is there any moral equivalence between Hitler’s industrial slaughter of the Jews and Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. The effort to portray Zionism as a Nazi ideology and Israel as a Nazi state is especially dangerous for its capacity to impact negatively on attitudes towards Israel among the British public. As Victor Klemperer, the German-Jewish academic who lived through the Nazi era, put it “words can be like tiny doses of arsenic: they are swallowed unnoticed, appear to have no effect, and then after a little time the toxic reaction sets in after all.” And it is in these terms that one should view the findings of a January 2005 poll carried out by YouGov for the Daily Telegraph which asked respondents to rate two dozen countries on the basis of twelve separate criteria. Israel came top of the list of countries people would least like to visit or live in. It was voted the country least worthy of international respect and was thought to be one of the world’s “least democratic countries”. Overall Israel ranked bottom in four of the twelve categories and in the bottom five in all the remaining categories.
But the fact that today’s British anti-Zionists are using the same arguments to de-legitimize Israel as their predecessors did to de-legitimize Zionism in the pre-1948 period highlights more clearly than anything else that today’s anti-Zionist movement is not primarily motivated by sincerely held moral concerns over concrete Israeli “wrongs” that have occurred since the collapse of the Oslo process in 2000 or the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, or even the establishment of Israel in 1948. Moreover, it lends credence to the view that today’s anti-Zionists, are motivated in their intense and incomprehensible hatred of Israel by the fact that it is a Jewish country, just as in the 1940s, anti-Zionists were motivated (as seen above) by the fact that Zionism was a Jewish movement and Zionists were, for the most part, Jews.
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About the Author
Rory Miller is a senior lecturer in Mediterranean Studies at King’s College, University of London, and associate editor of the academic journal Israel Affairs. He is author of Divided against Zion: Opposition to a Jewish State in Palestine, 1945-1948 (London, 2000).
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Hanan, Jewish,
Israel.
Ah yes, Tempered,
It’s the same old argument isn’t it? There’s so few of you “victims” and so many enemies, more than a billion. And the world is virulently anti-Jew.
You know very well that that argument’s hogwash.
For someone who has very little time for the Internet you’ve certainly done a lot of reading around about Nazism and anti-semitism, or to put it correctly, anti-Jewism, since Arabs are semites too, and typing on this blog.
// Mallmann and Cuppers show that virulent Arab anti-Semitism is older than the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, and they demonstrate what part Nazi Germany had in its propagation. //
So now the trick is to make anti-Jewism an ingrained part of Arabs? Something that’s imprinted in their genetic makeup? That Arabs were born anti-Jews and the influence of the Nazis aggravated this genetic defect? That we are coming closer to the intersect between Arabs and Nazis? And soon, judging by where your argument’s heading, it will be proven that Arabs and Nazis are the one and same thing.
Yes, Arabs did fight Jews in Palestine before 1948. But you failed to mention that the Zionist terrorists gangs, the Irgun and Stern gangs, had carried out attacks on Arabs in Palestine since the 1930’s. Could it be that the Arabs attacked Jews because they, the Arabs, were attacked first?
If you have time, perhaps you’d like to read this article on Jewish terrorism in Palestine in the 1930’s.
The fact remains that before Israel, Arabs, nay, Muslims, lived in peace with Jews. Muslim rulers sheltered Jews who were persecuted, mainly by Europeans, througout the centuries from the first year of Hijrah right until the idea of a Zionist, Jewish, apartheid state came to fruition in the form of Israel.
In Muslim Spain, Muslims, Jews and yes, even Christians, rubbed shoulders and lived in harmony. Both the Muslims and Jews were expelled from Andalucia when the Christians came to power. The refugees, Muslims and Jews, were given shelter by the Muslims in Morocco and the surrounding areas.
And thanks for pointing us to the Likud Holland site and David Horowitz’s FrontPage magazine. Now, those are really balanced sites. Odd how Horowitz is for reparations for the Holocaust and against reparations for slavery. And of course, being the balanced, disinterested academic that he is, Horowitz’s stand on those issues have nothing to do with skin colour or politics. Perish the thought. Or better still, read this.
Dr.Mahathir,
A lot of your comments are valid but I think you need to re-look at the early 20th century history. Douglas Reed (you probably never heard of him) a British journalist wrote it like he saw it. His entire book is available here in PDF format or you could read it on line below:
http://knud.eriksen.adr.dk/index.html
I am sure you will find it very valuable in enhancing your understanding of the present problems in Palestine. People who don’t know their history are doomed to repeat it!!
In the name of Allah The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.
Let’s take another analogy. Suppose that you were living happily in your house along with your family. Then one day someone came over and called your house , let’s say for this case, his “Promised House”, and kicked you and your family out.
How would you react, then?
Dear Wajaperak
//I heard Atheis propagate this and tries very hard to dislodge us from faith..I and all the muslim says and profess that substance is more that can be touch by mere sight and sounds..//
Oh no. You go ahead believing what you want to but if you want to proof something, don’t use your religious book on me. You have to use non biased evidence like archeology to show that Arabs existed on that piece of land before the Jews.
If you use your book, I use my book. We go no where. So just show other evidence. If the Arabs existed before, there should be some old things they left behind, right?
//Aha..this is the bone of contention..Diferrence of belief..Muhammad s.a.w did not says so but Allah says so through Al Quran..You depend on archeology but we depend on something far more substantial than archeology..Jericho..how do you borne into the this world?..Some have shoulder dystocia..some torsion of testes..Some have squint..Most are normal..Who tells and reported this incidence? Through their medical journal..Doctor or midwife..Did they screw up?..Whom can you trust?…Muslim finds Al Quran just good enough living orator and historian..//
How does you refering to your birth defect got anything to do with proofing that Moses is Muslim? I am sorry that you have some torsion of testes, but that does not help in proofing your case on Moses.
//You believe so but Al Quran says otherwise..//
Well, if you can find an historical evidence that shows the koran to exist 2000 or more years ago, I would like to see them to be convinced. Before Muhammad, the Kaaba houses 360 idols and Allah, the moon god was one of the dieties of the Kaaba.
//By the same acccount..Are you able to show proof that Moses, Solomon and David are not Muslims?//
Islam started from the 7th century AD. Unless you can show me that the koran existed before that time, there was no such thing as islam before then. Moses, Solomon and David worshiped a God called YHWH, not Allah.
//Who wrote and owns wikipedia??//
If you don’t believe in wikipedia, do a search from other source than. The caves is a gazatted historical and religious site and I am sure you can find it among your own Muslim sources since it would appear that you only rely on muslim sources in your arguments.
The land that Israel is sitting on is the same land that God Himself had given to them as promised since the days of the Old Testament. And only He can take it away from them. To refute this is to show ignorance of the origins of our shared history.
“It is not the Palestinians who choose violence. It was the Jews who violently seized Palestinian land, massacred the Arabs and expelled them from their country.”
Same things happen in Sri Lanka. It is not the Tamils who choose violence. It was the Sinhalese who violently seized Tamils land, massacred the Tamils and expelled them from their country. Worst is they we’re make it as 2nd class citizen. No Tamils allowed to be included in Army or Police force.
But, the world don’t understand this. US President after so many years voice out for Palestinians because he is Obama.
If US President is from native Tamil, then the US President will say LTTE and Prabhakaran is right.
Poor world leaders. Never been fair so far to anyone. That’s the world we’re living!
Dear qwe,
I don’t think your questions has relevance to the post issue. But if you insist to ask I’ll answer. in both cases the situation is handled foolish. Since you didn’t ask me to explain why my answers are alike, grab the challenge and try to find why. When you find the answer, keep it with you.
Hanan, Jewish,
Israel.
Dear friend Tempered,
I don’t know who you are and from where you are. It really doesn’t matter.
You are really GREAT and very well knowledgeable in history with an objective analysis.
Thank you for the enlightening facts and support.
I salute you.
Hanan, Jewish,
Israel.
to hanan:
consider the following cases:
Case 1: you saw someone robbed your brother’s house. in order to not be called a fool, you just smiled at the robber and let him go away.
Case 2: you saw someone robbed your brother’s house. you shouted for help and called the police.
so which one, dear hanan, do you call a fool?
By the way, I would like to thank “prof_ridcully” for informing me of the so-called “megaphone” desktop tool. I did not know of it, but will certainly make use of it in the future. It should be useful in countering the extremely one-sided and demonizing anti-Zionism that so marrs the internet universe.
One big problem for those trying to present a more balanced and humane view of Israel is that there are only some 13 million Jews in the world, and well over a billion Muslims, just as there is only one tiny Jewish state in the world, but 57 Muslim states most if not all of which are keen to erase it. The results can be seen at the U.N., which has reduced itself to farce, even in their Human Rights Council and International Court of Justice. Political realities like this also incline non-Muslim states to side with the Goliath rather than the little David – just as in schoolyard playgrounds. Furthermore, decent non-Jews generally have neither the time nor the inclination to muddy themselves in the rather debased dialogues in blogs throughout the world. They have work to do in the real world. So those few who do have the time and inclination find such tools useful. Opposing such Jews and non-Jews, there are in addition to the generally strongly anti-Jewish billion-plus Muslims also extremist leftist and rightist neo-Nazi non-Muslim Judeophobes in the West who while only a fringe in Western democracies (they may be for example unemployed welfare recipients) spend a lot of time on the internet spreading their poison. This naturally means that the views expressed in most blogs are very unbalanced, extremist and inhumane, with double standards rampant. So a tool like the “megaphone” device can come in very handy, for those beleaguered few of us, Jewish and non-Jewish, who have the time to post a bit on the internet and who seek decency and peace in the world. In any case, “prof_ridcully” should be glad that there is some small balance in the views presented in virulent anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish blogs. Otherwise only lies would rule the world unopposed.
Ayahanda Tun,
Izinkan…
//By Mcitizen on June 12, 2009 4:25 PM//
Dear Mcitizen,
//Palestin issue will never settled unless there is ‘forget & forgive’ factor by both parties.//
My opinion is similiar to yours, but I will take a step further to make sure this misfortune will never happen in Malaysia by looking thing in a broader way and I do not want Chin Ping to come home. I can forgive him but I cannot forget what he has done to our Malaysians. He shoot an old man in a coffee shop without fear and challenged our pihak berkuasa in front of the public, and the old man pointed at his picture before he died.
//By the way, what is your stand on recent issues on other parts of the world or communities ://
I am not speaking on behalf of Tun Dr M, but as a responsible Malaysian, I will share with you my stand on these issues:-
1. North Korea rocket launch – The only way to solve this problem is to wait for the North Koreans to take action to go against their leader. But I think they are unable to do so because they may got themselve kill if they are to go against their leader. And don’t forget, N. Korean is lead by army which means violence is the only way to get things right.
2. Sri Lankan war – It is because the people are too poor and do not have proper education. The only way out is to go into war in order to survive. I feel sorry for them because their leaders are more interested to save themselve.
3. Racial attack in Australia – Some of our comments are not published by chedet, why? Because some comments will provoke racial attack and Tun Dr M does not want it to happen in Malaysia so it’s better not to let these issues to be confronted directly. So think again, is CAT system the best approach for Malaysia? Should our permit to gather in large crowd be approved by our police department? The only way to prevent this misfortune is to re-brand Malaysia Boleh to 1Malaysia due to our Pak Lah’s openness in governing Malaysia.
4. Acid attack on public in Hong Kong – This attack is mainly due to social problems whereby the young teenagers, mainly due to no love, insecure and no proper guidance from the family who tried to challenge the HK authorithy to prove that they are the warriors. Why our police went after the Mat Rempit or Samseng Jalanan, if they don’t act now, I may afraid our young ones will blindly commit this crime without realising it.
//How come I do not see you commenting on the crime in the country? Dont you worry on the statistics and what are the authorities doing to control this?//
It is because you are shallow minded and self-centered that is why you do not understand the writings of Tun Dr M. If you are a reponsible person, I am sure you will be able to learn from Tun Dr M’s articles. Instead of appreciating his kindness in sharing his views with us, you challenge him. You are no different from those Hongkies who spray acid on others!!!!
Good night Ayahanda Tun. He is a Chinese, and it will take time to re-educate him because of our so-called self-protecting tradition.
I would like to add a further reference to the Nazi influence on anti-Zionism and antisemitism in the Arab and wider Muslim world. I did not think of this important book in my previous post because it is still only available in German. It is Halbmond und Hakenkreuz: Das “Dritte Reich,” die Araber und Palestina (Crescent and Swastika: The “Third Reich,” the Arabs and Palestine), by Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers (2006). This work supports the findings of Küntzl, Jihad and Jew-Hatred, mentioned in a previous post, and documents in depth and detail the mutual interaction and support between Nazi Germany and the anti-Zionist Arab world, reflecting the elaborate plans of the Nazis to continue their genocide in the Middle East once they gained control of Egypt-Mandate Palestine-Syria. The Nazi influence of course went beyond just antisemitism. It also inspired Arab authoritarian racist nationalist ideologies, as for example in the Ba’athist Parties of Syria and Iraq, but even militantly Muslim movements like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (Hamas is an offshoot) which have continued to have such important roles up to the present. And it cannot be ignored that the wide influence of Nazi antisemitism was greatly facilitated, in fact, by its resonance with traditional Muslim antisemitic views, as documented by for example Bostom’s book, and also by Klaus Gensicke, Der Mufti von Jerusalem und die Nationalsozialistien (2008). So it would be wrong simply to claim that Muslim antisemitism was just a European import. It is indigenous, too, but gained a special genocidal and political malignancy from the Nazis.
Those interested in a good solidly factual and scholarly, but fairly brief review of the history of Muslim antisemitism from its origins to the present can go to http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/05/ben-dror-yemini-the-jewish-nakba-expulsi/index.shtml
In any case I give here an extensive quote from the summary of Mallmann and Cüppers’ book at FrontPageMagazine.com (Oct. 4, 2007; reposted at the Likud Holland website:
Nazi propaganda with the Arabs had considerable success. Cuppers and Mallmann quote many specific documents from the Nazi archives on this. Against common perception, according to which Germany only became involved in the Middle East via (originally) support for the Israeli state, Cuppers and Mallmann show what an important shaping influence national socialism had on the Arab national movement.
The German invasion of the Middle East never happened because Rommel was defeated, but that does not mean that the Nazis exerted no influence. From the late 1930s, the planning staffs dealing with the external affairs of the Reich in the Head Office of Reich Security (RSHA, Reichssecuritathauptamt: originally under the monstrous Gestapo-chief Reinhard Heydrich) sought influence in the Arabian Peninsula. The dream was a pincer movement, one from the north via a defeated Soviet Union, one from the south via the Near East and Persia, in order to separate Great Britain from India and to control completely the oil-rich Middle East.
That was the plan, but the counteroffensive of the Red Army before Moscow in 1941/1942 and at Stalingrad in 1942/1943, and the defeat of the German Africa Corps with El Alamein, finally defeated the plan. These victories also prevented the arrival of the Holocaust in the Near East, riding with the German armed forces, something which, however, was intended.
Despite the initial Nazi tolerance of Jewish emigration from Germany to Palestine, the Nazi government eventually expanded their Holocaust plans to include the destruction of the Jews in the Near East. Studies undertaken by SS Einsatzgruppe [Special Taskforce] F already were listing Jewish dwellings in Palestine to be confiscated as accommodations for German troops once the Afrika Korps arrived in Palestine.
Starting from the summer of 1942, an “SS Einsatz Gruppe Egypt” was established after the model of the mass-murder Einsatzgruppen active on the East Front, which had already murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews. The one established in Egypt was led by SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Walter Rauff and he had a whole staff with him, experienced in the murder of Jews, experts from the RSHA, the Head Office for Reich Security. Their order: To continue “the destruction of the Jews begun in Europe with the energetic assistance of Arab collaborators” in the Near East.
According to Mallmann and Cuppers, the main Nazi ally locally was the Arab National Movement, and especially the Palestinian national movement, under the guidance of the exiled Amin al-Husseini Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and uncle of the later Palestinian president Yassir Arafat. Its task was the spreading of pro-Nazi propaganda intended to mobilize local collaborators with the Nazi army and Nazi policies.
The latter task, spreading support for Nazi policies, was not a failure. Partly because of the attraction of the alleged anti-imperialism of the Nazis, which was directed against the mandate power of Great Britain, partly because of the dream of the resurgence of a vast Arab-Islamic realm, the Middle East elite became what Hitler celebrated as “prophets against the Jews.”
Already at that time the so-called Palestinian question provided the crucial link, hatred of the Jews provided the crucial link, between the two different forces.
The military successes of the Afrika Korps eventually came to an end, stopped by the British in August/September 1942. But a lasting Nazi propaganda achievement was to place the Jewish settlement in Palestine in the center of Arab political mobilization and at the same time within a burning Islamic anti-imperialism.
The central idea was that the destruction of the Yishuv (the Jewish population in Palestine) was the condition for the release of the Arab world from foreign rule. “Hear, O noble Arabs!,” reads one German pamphlet spread in Tunisia in 1943, “Free yourselves from the Englishmen, the Americans and the Jews! Because the Englishmen, Americans, the Jews, and their allies are the largest enemies of the Arabs and Islam!”
Messages such as these were spread by a far-reaching network of Nazi agents and collaborators, and met with a positive response in Arab nationalist and Islamic circles, a positive response from an elite that would eventually run entire Arab states.
Thus agents of Nazi foreign propaganda in Egypt maintained close relations not only with the Muslim Brotherhood (from which Hamas descends), but also with “the free officers,” a clandestine group from which the later presidents Abdel Nassir and Anwar al Sadat originated.
Arab terrorists in Palestine were already being supplied with weapons from Nazi Germany in the mid-1930s, when the Grand Mufti Husseini was leading them in an anti-Jewish rebellion against the British; the Nazi intent was to weaken both the Jewish and British mechanisms of power.
In all parts of the Arab world, similar groups, such as those in Iraq in 1940-1941 (the pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali in Baghdad in April 1941, with Husseini again present) pushed for action and gratefully received the material and ideological support from Nazi Germany.
From April to June 1941 there was actually a Luftwaffe squadron stationed in Baghdad. The Rashid Ali coup was eventually overturned by the British in June 1941 — but not before there was a pogrom in Baghdad that led to the murder of several hundred (and perhaps up to two thousand) Iraqi Jews.
With the defeat of El Alamein in November 1942, it was clear that the German military invasion of the Middle East would not materialize. The Nazi government therefore concentrated German policy on mobilizing “the Arab resistance.” In this way the advance of the Allied armies could be hindered (though not stopped).
The connection of all this to the Jews, however, soon embodied itself in the everyday consciousness of the masses. “What do the Americans want? They want to help the Jews,” was the type of propaganda the Nazis were spreading at that point. “Take up weapons, where you find them. Do damage to the cause to the enemy, wherever you can.”
As Mallmann and Cuppers write, the “remarkable similarity between Nazi propaganda that was broadcast into the Middle East and the treatises of today’s terrorists is not accidental;” the one is the ancestor of the other.
Mallmann and Cuppers show that virulent Arab anti-Semitism is older than the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, and they demonstrate what part Nazi Germany had in its propagation. Their work is based on investigations in German archives.
Maybe these are the works done by illuminati and freemason.
Novos Ordo Seclorum/the new world order?
Perhaps they are unstopable.
They think 10 steps ahead of us.
http://www.thearrivals.blogspot.com
care to watch and act.
Dear Tun & Bloggers
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
Obama was right that Jews was persecuted and slaughtered for hundred of years in the past… but what he didn’t mention was that it was Christians doing it, not Muslims.. any fair historians can verify that. Even a quick check on Wikipedia can confirm this.
Fact aside, I still believe Obama is way better in handling this issue compared to the Bushes, way better.
Salaam to TUN and family
I’d like to share an article i read from globalresearch website about Obama’s speech in Cairo.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13897
Norshinah
Dear friend indiana, Assalamalaikum and grace,
I’m so happy that you are ignorant my contribution for peace. I’m sorry that I cannot expose it here among the whole audience, just not to embarrass some important people even in your country. Sometimes it is better to be quiet. One thing I can assure you, you are totaly wrong. Thanks God I don’t need to report you but report Him, the only Judge. Who knows – knows and who don’t know – don’t know.
There is a Jewish proverb: “A fence of wisdom is silence, means when you are not talking, people will think you are not a fool. In other words: sometimes speaking is making you be a fool then better have a fence to protect you from others to know that.
I wish you a blessed weekend, wassalam.
Hanan, Jewish,
Israel.
what hannan and the gang and some ungrateful malaysians failed to see is that those women and children who are being slaughtered and decapitated on a daily-basis on that part of middle-east are human being too. is being a muslim makes you less human? you can go on arguing about history and who has the right to that piece of land and things like that, but is it going to stop any killing? definitely no. so hanan, you can go on writing a book on how to counter-comment Tun Mahathir’s blog, but what is your role in stopping the murder of another mother, husband, wife, and child to somebody else? At least this old man (who does not even command a single army) goes all over the world and preach for both side of the divide to stop the killing.
Tiada beza mungkin Obama dan Bush… hanya warna kulit… Mason tetap Mason….
Salam Tun,
Aah, Tempered, so Dr Mahathir’s blog has attracted the Megaphone crowd [link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaphone_desktop_tool%5D
Keep it up Tun, you’re saying something that needs to be said. I just saw footage on Al Jazeera of young Israeli illegal settlers breaking the limbs of an elderly Palestinian. And thanks to Israeli justice, the thugs got away scot-free because the Israeli prosecutor refused to prosecute them citing, wait for it, national security.
But I forget. To the Apartheid Israeli state Jews are the eternal victims aren’t they?
Salam Tun,
Kekadang saya fikir sistem dunia yang ada sekarang patut di rombak semula?
Tun
Palestin issue will never settled unless there is ‘forget & forgive’ factor by both parties.
By the way, what is your stand on recent issues on other parts of the world or communities :
1. North Korea rocket launch
2. Sri Lankan war
3. Racial attack in Australia
4. Acid attack on public in Hong Kong
5. Others, if any
How come I do not see you commenting on the crime in the country? Dont you worry on the statistics and what are the authorities doing to control this?
M-Citizan
Peace b upon all of u,
All the comments which i read through are superb genius A plus author and historians. But, until the end of time..what we can do just talk..talk..talk like nobody business. We’re talking too much on this palestinian issues and not worth even a single cents..no physical contribution given. Everybody got their phD on this ‘Israel vs Muslim’..every body become some sort of anti-war or anti-jews and suddenly got balls..so sad to say..i can guarantee nobody in this forum contributed their RM1 to help the palestinians. what a pathetic..
I am just an ordinary man.
I was taught that even if I knew doomsday is tomorrow, I must continue to live and work – like normal.
Tun Dr Mahathir and Mr President Obama are not ordinary men.
They are leaders.
They are capable not only to watch things happen but also to make things happen.
And being the President of America, Mr Obama can do a lot of things, big time!
What might held him back are his terms
Dengan Izin Tun..Terimakasih..
Hellow Jericho
//Belief in something without substance is foolish//
I heard Atheis propagate this and tries very hard to dislodge us from faith..I and all the muslim says and profess that substance is more that can be touch by mere sight and sounds..
//Muhammad may say that Moses, Solmon and David are muslims in the 7th century but it is an undeniable fact that they are jews. The Kingdom of Israel exist not just in text like the Torah but is backed by archeology.//
Aha..this is the bone of contention..Diferrence of belief..Muhammad s.a.w did not says so but Allah says so through Al Quran..You depend on archeology but we depend on something far more substantial than archeology..Jericho..how do you borne into the this world?..Some have shoulder dystocia..some torsion of testes..Some have squint..Most are normal..Who tells and reported this incidence? Through their medical journal..Doctor or midwife..Did they screw up?..Whom can you trust?…Muslim finds Al Quran just good enough living orator and historian..
//Since Islam only started in the 7th century AD, and these people lived way back several thousands of years before Islam started, how can they be muslims?//
You believe so but Al Quran says otherwise..
//Are you able to show proof that Moses, Solomon and David are not jews?//
By the same acccount..Are you able to show proof that Moses, Solomon and David are not Muslims?
//In Hebron there is an historical site called the Caves of the Patriach where 4 ancient couples were buried. Are these people not jews? Pls show proof that they are not jews.//
Again..By the same account, how do you prove them to be otherwise??
//You will also note that Isaac and his son Jacob (later called Israel) and their wifes are buried there.
Abraham other son, Ishmael (the father of Arabs) is not buried in that historical site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs//
Who wrote and owns wikipedia??
//Pls check when did the Muslim calendar started and compare that with when the Jewsih calendar started.//
So you thought Hijrah years connotes the Muslim existence?..Such naivety..
//How about from other sources that are non religion like archeology to show whether the Jews or Arabs lived in that piece of land in ancient times.//
I can do better..In science..just where the hell our life is situated? And where is our soul for that matter?..
Get the hint?..
Thank you
Dengan izin Tun..Terimakasih..
Dear Jericho..
Who mention them?..In Al Quran they are mentioned differently..Care to read Al Quran?..
Dengan Izin Tun..Terimakasih..
Hanan..
Here we go again:)
3.//Hamas is making their terror against innocent civilians by suicide bombers in malls, restaurants and buses. Is this your equalization of liberty war dear Dr. Mahathir?//
Some believes that Israel is the only world nation populated by soldier’s…Active..Dormant..or Retired..Siege mentality and regimented..core to the military life and concept..So..where is your civilian Mr Hanan?
//I must say that your understanding is biased and wrongly interpreting history. Let’s see the Hamas brave “freedom fighters” confront only the IDF. Because they are not able to defeat the IDF they prefer terrorizing innocent civilians. Is this is your equation balance for freedom fighting?//
We does not agrees harming of the civilian of any kind..But what Hamas was doing is gaining attention all around the world..I disagree in the senses that two wrong never will make it right but the second wrong always bring back the equation to the first one..
Trigger the conscience of getting things right..
//5.Dear Dr. Mahathir, you are absolutely re-writing the history for your propaganda purpose. The first Zionists arrived to the land of Israel more than 100 years ago. They arrived to an almost empty land of swamps and desert. They arrived here without any tanks and weapons. Even so the Arab population created riots and pogroms in the new and old Jewish communities.//
Hanan..In Muslim teritory, pig rearing is blasphemous..They incites hatred and anger..Zionists did not asks permission from Arab population to be where they are like pig rearing issues..Issues that can be resolves through negotiation..You still find it is not neccessary to asks permission from Tun to enter his blog..Don’t ever Israel learns?..
//Was that the violence of the Jews? In 1948, when David Ben Gurion declared the Independence of Israel according to the UN resolution, the Arab nations started a war against the Jewish community of just about 1/2 a million while the Arabs had already armed forces. Their violence against the Jews was unsuccessful and they lost parts of the land. They continued their violence in the future wars in 1967 and 1973. Every war they lost more land.//
You came through UN resolution..Do you asks permissions from the Arab to set up settlements?..Do your understand Arab anger through this manipulation?..This is trivial to you isn’t it?
//6.That land belongs to the Jews as equal or even more than to the Palestinians.//
Permission..permission..Who have them and who should asks permission??
//It is our promised land and we were living here many years before the word Palestine and Palestinians were born. It was a Jewish land and kingdoms where you could hear “Shema Israel Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad” thousand years before the “Allahhu Akbar” was heard in that land.//
Says who Hanan..? Your Rabbi and your brethren? Where were you thousands years before?..Please respect the diferrence of belief that Israel is a new concepts invented by human..Islam is divine by Allah decree..Those you mentioned is Muslim..It is all in belief..
//Jerusalem was a Jewish town much before the prophet Muhammad was born.//
You implied that Islam is brought by prophet Muhammad..It is not true Hanan..Islam exist since Adam a.s and Muhammad s.a.w is the last that solidify it..The final piece of brick in the foundation..
//The right to return is based on the principal if you are the land owner.//
Dear Hanan..Who owns all land and the space too? The Al Mighty Allah..so if you chose not to believe please says..According to Torah..According to my belief..According to..
//Can you show me one Muslim country in that world that is not executing a death penalty for terror or for even less criminal activities?//
Sadly I cannot because real Muslim country practice Hudud as real Jewish country practice Hudud too..It is in Torah about retribution..An eye for an eye..A tooth for a tooth..
//Yes, we are bad people because we use western and self developed sophisticated weapons.//
That does not make you bad..What makes you bad is to refuse to believe that the land Palestine is to be shared..and shared alike by people of diferrent belief..
//Malaysia must send her army to help the Palestinians just to equalize the equation.//
No need for this..A new Salahuddin will rise from East in 40 years time at most..Just wait Allah will..
//What benefit of that crying can the Palestinians gain?//
Only soft hearted persons can cries..It fit the billing to why the Israelite cannot cry..Is it not??
//The Palestinians agreed about stopping terror during the negotiations and they didn’t stop it for a single minute. What are you expecting us to do? To expend our other cheek for the slap?//
Who violates peace accord time and again?
//You know why? Because no one likes them to live on their land//
And why is this is so Hanan? Palestinian are bad neighbour’s? Or…you are??
//As a fact we have other religions minorities in Israel with the full citizen rights, even without the racist “NEP” to promote Jews among the minorities//
Aha..A good government but a poor neighbour??
//Maybe it would be better that we lost them. Don’t you think?//
No..You derserves those win..But if Americans don’t comes into the equation..what will happens?..I heard nuke is the option..
//Thank you for letting the mouse stay alive so it can be tortured a bit more before the fatal slam.//
Tsk tsk Hanan..Big Brother ( America ) wont allows this 🙂
//That’s why I’m a bit sarcastic here as well as in the other comments//
Hanan..you are boiling hot..Are you that hot when Palestinian dies at Israeilies checkpoint..Just beyond is the hospital and medical facilities..
//Dear Dr. Mahathir, what are you complaining about? Now the American president is with Muslim roots (I still think he is a Muslim and not a Christian as he is claiming) http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/is-obama-christian-muslim-or-atheist-more-importantly-is-he-a-liar/ (watch the video on that page by scrolling down). The super power has fallen directly into the hands of a Muslim, a clever Muslim. Do you think that the ugly Jews can manipulate Obama? I think that now the super power is controlled by Muslims proxy and not by the proxy of Jews. Now it is your turn of the wheel to the top//
How I hope this is true but we will keeps our dream and hang it high on the pedestal..
Hanan..you are tough nut..You battered my body and almost flattened me but I hope I did bloody your nose..
Thank you Tun..
wajaperak
Dr. Mahathir, you may have suppressed my post, in which I took up each of your eighteen points and contrasted them, perhaps at too great length to meet your taste, with the dramatically different actual history and facts, including the close affiliation of the highest Palestinian leadership in the 1930s and throughout the Second World War with the Nazis, and their successors’ continuation of Nazi doctrines to today (the “moderate” Mahmud Abbas wrote his doctoral dissertation suppporting Holocaust denial), but you can still read my detailed response yourself and perhaps learn from it. Just about every one of your points is erroneous, even those that some Jewish posters you have allowed on your site accept, such as the claims that “The Muslims have never been part of the tragic history of the Jews [and unfairly] pay the price for the tragedy caused by the Europeans.” At least this suggests that unlike too many Muslims, you do not deny the Holocaust.
But Muslim antisemitism and unjust treatment of Jews have always been problems, and not just since Muslim Arab collusion with Nazism in the 30s and 40s (on which see Matthias Kuentzel, Jihad and Jew-hatred) making a Jewish state nowadays all the more necessary. I refer you again to the over 700 page encyclopedic treatment in Andrew Bostom, ed., The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism, or indeed earlier studies such as Bat Ye’or, The Dhimmi, or Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab Lands, and his The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times, Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, and his Semites and Antisemites, or many similar books.
Simply the expulsion of almost all Jews from Arab lands since the founding of Israel, and the illegal expropriation of all their property, speaks for itself. If Israel responded with a similar expulsion and expropriation of Palestinians, it would have merely been mirroring the Arab policies (Palestinians for example still openly demand the racist ethnic cleansing of Jews from all Palestinian territories as a “precondition” for peace), but in fact it extended citizenship to all resident Arabs instead, and 1 and a half million presently reside in Israel as full citizens, fully one-fifth the population. Israel therefore is a true liberal democracy, and not at all a racist nor exclusivist state, as you claim, although the Palestinians want exactly such a state for themselves. Another interesting point I made in my suppressed post was that it was precisely Arab/Muslim Judeophobia and expulsions that caused the flight of 800,000 Jews to take refuge in Israel itself, ironically greatly strengthening the state.
You also misrepresent the relationship of the contending parties to U.N. resolutions. In 1947, the U.N. resolved the establishment of two states, a Jewish one and an Arab one, west of the Jordan. The Jews accepted this, and Israel was born, entirely legally and without any expulsion of Arabs implied or intended; the Arabs rejected it and invaded to wipe out all Jews. The pressures by Arab states on local Arabs to vacate the area and thus to allow their intended indiscriminate slaughter of remaining Jews caused the Palestinian refugee problem. But the rejection of a binding Security Council-General Assembly resolution to establish two peaceable states was by the Arabs, not by Israel. So it is hypocritical of Arabs now to protest Israel’s dissent from later merely advisory General Assembly resolutions that intentionally undermine its security, especially given that there is only one Jewish state in the world, but 57 Muslim ones with corresponding influence in the U.N.
Similarly, Resolution 242 that was passed by the U.N. in 1967 is wrongly read by you: look at it again: it calls for peace negotiations that will adjust borders to take account of Israel’s legitimate security concerns. To demand that Israel give up all land won in its defensive war of 1967 as a precondition for peace negotiations, predetermining final borders completely in Palestinian favor and with no concessions to Israel’s security needs, violates the terms of the 242 resolution.
Muslim Judeophobia has a weaker twin in Muslim anti-Christian phobia. It is a striking fact that the percentage of Christians in every Middle Eastern country has drastically declined since the Second World War, usually halving, except in one state: Israel. There the percentage of Christians has actually increased since 1948 when Israel was established. Radicalization of Muslims in the modern period has been bad news for all the minorities in their midst, not just Jews. It is time that responsible Muslim leaders, both religious and political, addressed this problem, instead of posturing about Israel and the Palestinians: it is telling that Muslim contributions to support Palestinians in the refugee camps located in the midst of Arab states was very low for the entire first generation after their establishment: the chief donations were from the U.S. and Israel. Only since the 1970s have Arab contributions increased.
Finally, the presumption that America cannot be a true democracy, and is even secretly controlled by some Jewish sinister conspiracy, just because it freely and warmly supports the only firm and like-minded ally and completely stable liberal democracy in the Middle East, is certainly highly prejudiced.
With all due respect, I am truly amazed that a responsible former head of state can spout such completely ignorant ideas. Sensible Muslims have real cause for shame when their leaders on the world stage cannot rise above such fanciful and hateful demonizations and even excuse and ground these in Muslim texts and agendas. Too bad.
If by nothing else, Mr. Mahathir should be chastened by the sort of people who applaud his views on this blog, many of whom are open and true antisemites, Muslim and non-Muslim. One may know a man by the company he keeps. Similarly with the Palestinian leadership. Not by accident did Hitler welcome Haj Amin el-Hussaini, the leader of the Palestinians of the generation of British Mandate Palestine in the 1920s and 30s; el-Hussaini actually spent World War II in Nazi Germany as the honored guest of Hitler; after the war he mentored his nephew Yasser Arafat in his own genocidal antisemitism. Ever since, he was engaged in murdering Jews, whether at airline terminals, pizza parlours or school buses, Olympic games or tourist cruises. I would not like to think that Mr. Mahathir endorses all this or wishes to consort with such people as his equals.
In any case, the claims made by Mr. Mahathir are so ludicrous and exaggerated it is easy to refute them very simply.
Taking them in order, and starting with number 5: The Jews who settled in British Mandate Palestine did not seize “Palestinian” land, but as a matter of documented fact purchased it entirely legally from voluntary sellers, or peaceably settled uninhabited and unowned wilderness including swamps and desert, and made them fertile and habitable through sheer hard work and incredible sacrifice. No “Palestinians” were massacred or expelled. If the indigenous Arabs (who then resisted the name “Palestinians,” by the way, insisting that they were “Syrians” or “Jordanians”) had accepted the 1947 UN resolution establishing two states, one overwhelmingly Jewish and the other entirely Arab, in the area west of the Jordan, there would have been no war, no “dispossession” at all and no “refugee” problem. This is obvious on the face of it. The Jews wanted peace with the Arabs and invited them to remain amongst them, and also strongly urged a “two-state solution” then. It was the Arabs who refused and insisted on violent conflict, with the armies of five Arab states and two additional “irregular” armed forces invading the Jewish areas even before the State of Israel was formally declared in May, 1948. They frankly and publicly proclaimed their aim to be a total annihilation of the entire Jewish population. There was no talk of setting up a separate “Palestine” then. Even in the 1920s and 30s the Arabs, led by Haj Amin el-Hussaini, aimed for a Greater Syria and not a separate Arab “Palestine.” el-Hussaini led terrorist attacks on Jewish settlements and communities, wiping out whole civilian populations and driving out the surviving Jews from outlying towns like Hebron. But the Jewish community refused to reply in kind, practicising restraint throughout the 20s and 30s and during World War II because they wished to give no excuse for the British to close down immigration of Jews. All this is a matter of easy historical verification, documented at the time.
6: Despite their best efforts, the seven Arab armies in 1948 failed to wipe out the Jews; in fact, they were driven back, and thus more land came into Jewish control than would have fallen to them had Jews not been forced into self-defense, and if the Arabs been peaceable and accepted their own state next to a Jewish one. There was no Jewish denial of “the Palestinian right to a homeland.” Quite the opposite: it was laid out in the original UN resolution establishing Israel. Even after the 1948 War, it is noticeable that the lands seized by Egypt and Jordan were not given to the Palestinians to form their own homeland, and there was no “Palestinian” protest at this. But in any case the homeland was the Egyptians and Jordanians to give, and they did not. Instead, they incarcerated the Palestinian refugees in refugee camps and refused them citizenship and normal lives, while taking over their land. Unlike all other refugee populations in history, this one was not allowed – by Arabs, not by Israel – to adjust to normal lives again. Interestingly, Arab or other Muslim financial contributions to sustain the Palestinian refugee camps was minimal for many decades, and the money chiefly came from the U.S. and Israel. Such was the Muslim and Arab concern for the “Palestinians.”
Several times more in subsequent years, Arabs sought war with Israel, seeking to wipe it out, and they failed. Israel fought only in self-defense against frequent terrorist attacks or all-out attempts at annihilation. The response of the Arabs was always the same, before and after 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1981: each time Israel offered peace, each time the Arabs refused peaceable recognition and co-existence. This too is a matter of easily verified historical fact. Egypt broke from this united rejectionism in 1979, and Israel made a still enduring peace with it, proving its good-faith desire to live in peace. When Jordan joined this in the 1990s, Israel also reciprocated eagerly. Israel was so eager for peace it invited Arafat into the Administered Territories in 1994 to establish a peaceable “Palestine,” and in 2000 made extraordinarily generous concessions in a peace treaty offer. But Arafat rejected all this out of hand, and ordered the Intifada instead.
Hamas, and Fatah, still frankly reject the very idea of a Jewish state. Hamas shows this openly with its rocketing Israeli cities, starting even at the time Israel gave Gaza over to Palestinian control. The rockets were not a response to Israeli violence, but were in response to Israeli peaceable withdrawal from Gaza. So the statement in paragraph 6 that “the Palestinians resorted to violence” only because of Israeli “assaults and provocations” is entirely false. Palestinians initiated the violence, which of course Israel had to defend itself against. This is what it finally did in Gaza this year, after patiently restraining itself during literally years of thousands of rocket attacks launched against its people. All this, too, is a matter of open and universal knowledge, however much it is twisted and denied by apologists for Palestinian terrorism.
Item 7: Israel is condemned in this paragraph for holding onto land gained in wars of self-defense, even though Palestinians have still refused to stop their violence and make genuine peace. Mr. Mahathir is angry that Israel does not unilaterally obey U.N. resolutions endangering its own security when Palestinians for their part continue warfare and never even obeyed the original and most fundamental 1947 U.N. resolution that established two states in the region, one Jewish and one Arab. From that fundamental Arab rejection of the 1947 U.N. resolution has come the entire tragic history of the region. The later U.N. resolutions of 1967 by the way did not set the boundaries of Israel, contrary to the assertions in paragraph 7. U.N. Resolution 242 called for peace negotiations and adjustments between the contending parties, taking account of the entirely legitimate security concerns of Israel. Those words are in the text of the resolution, and this is easily checked. The negotiations that were called for have still not been completed, so it would be unreasonable to demand Israel concede any land at all.
How fair is it to demand that Israel obey merely advisory General Assembly resolutions passed by the overwhelmingly Muslim and/or anti-Western nations there which are aimed at endangering Israel’s security, when the Arabs have all along refused to obey the much more binding General Assembly and Security Council resolution which established Israel to begin with? Why should only one side obey UN resolutions?
Item 9: It is claimed that only Europeans are responsible for antisemitism, and the Holocaust, but the Palestinians are being asked to pay the price. This is false. The leader of the Palestinians during the 1930s and 40s, Haj Amin el-Hussaini, spent the war in Nazi Germany, broadcast on German radio to the Middle East on behalf of the Nazis, issued “fatwas” in his capacity of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ordering all Muslims to join the Nazis against the Allies, and even personally sponsored the formation of two Muslim Waffen SS divisions. After the war he mentored his nephew, Yasser Arafat, in his own racist antisemitic and violent outlook. So the claim made by Palestinians that they are being made to suffer for European antisemitism cannot hold water. Their own identity has been formed precisely and only from virulent antisemitism, to be defined as a people as “over-against” Zionism and the Jewish state. There never was an autonomous positive “Palestinian” Arab nationality generally accepted as such before Israel was formed; the Palestine Liberation Organization was created only in 1964.
Item 10: Mr. Mahathir has a completely mythological view of happy Jews in Muslim lands before the modern era. Actually, Jews have had a very difficult and painful history in Muslim lands from the time of Mohammad onwards. Antisemitism is grounded in the chief Muslim sources and traditions, and has frequently erupted in violence. See, on this, the magisterial and voluminous accounts and analyses of Qur’anic and later mainstream sources, and detailed authoritative and scholarly articles on the actual history right up to the present, in Andrew Bostom, ed., The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism (2008), and the dispassionate learned analyses of Mohammed, Allah, and the Jews: The Foundational Doctrine, from the Center for the Study of Political Islam (2006).
Mr. Mahathir is also apparently unaware that after the founding of Israel, about a million peaceable Jews were expelled from Arab lands, their property was illegally expropriated, and many were physically attacked. About 800,000 relocated to Israel: ironically, such unjust Arab Muslim antisemitism directly contributed to and strengthened Israel itself.
All this gives the lie to Item 11: “The Muslims have never been part of the tragic history of the Jews.” Merely some knowledge of Mohammad’s own cruelty towards the Jews of Arabia shows this is untrue, not to mention the terrible events in subsequent centuries, including the oppressions and occasional massacres of Jews in 19th century Palestine itself, well before political Zionism even arose.
Item 12: Israel is a secular liberal democracy, the only stable and enduring one in the Middle East. It is not exclusively Jewish, and is not racist. Christians and Muslims, numbering fully a fifth of the population, have full citizenship there, with all civil rights including political parties, media, religion, etc. In fact, and tellingly, the only Middle Eastern state in which Christians have not been persecuted, and in which therefore the percentage of Christians has not drastically declined in the past generation is Israel, where on the contrary it has actually even increased. But, on the other hand, the Palestinian Authority demands that all Jews be eliminated from settlements in the West Bank as a precondition for peace negotiations: it is therefore only the Palestinians who are openly racist, for they demand a purely Arab and “Jew-free” state. It should be added that Jews include through conversion all the major races of humanity, and so the Jews are not a race at all but a community of shared religious origin and destiny.
Items 14 and 15: It is said that Palestinians have tried conventional ways of getting back their land. By this, it seems, Mr. Mahathir means the appropriation of Israel itself, since they have long dwelt in and now control the West Bank and Gaza. Naturally, the takeover of Israel will never succeed, nor be acceptable to Israel. But in fact, fitting their maximalist approach, the only way until recently that the Palestinians have tried to attain their goals is violence and terrorism. They have still not accepted the need for any concessions themselves. Israel offered real peace even before it was founded, in 1947, as well as after surviving Arab assault in 1948, and again in 1967, 1973, etc. Most notably, in 1994 it invited Arafat into the Administered Territories and offered complete peace, on exceptionally generous terms, in 2000. All of these initiatives were rejected, violently, by the Palestinians. They still refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, or to renounce and condemn violence and terrorism. That is why they “never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity [for peace].”
Item 16: Mr. Mahathir cannot quite bring himself to a frank admission that Palestinian terrorism is even terrorism. Rather, he labels the Israeli self-defense as “state terrorism,” equating it with Nazi Germany. He fails to accept that if Israel is attacked constantly, it has the right finally to defend itself forcibly. This right, which he accepts as a matter of course for any Muslim nation, he refuses to a Jewish one. This quite simply is raw antisemitism.
Items 17 & 18: He proves his antisemitism by his ignorant claim that “the Jews” control American democracy, so it is no democracy at all. Actually, Israel is quite naturally supported by Americans as a fellow liberal democracy that is struggling to survive in a very illiberal and authoritarian part of the world. Underdog sympathies are also extended to it, seeing that it is a very small country of just 7 million surrounded by 350 million people mostly in extremely fanatical and cruel states baying for its blood. Apart from this, Israel is the only like-minded firm ally in that region, and so is also supported for natural political strategic reasons. As a politician, Mr. Mahathir ought to grasp easily this elementary fact. In addition, the Christian majority there freely and warmly endorse the right of the Jews to have their own state in their Biblically grounded homeland, the only land which originally nurtured and shaped Jews and Judaism and from which Christianity itself came. Jewish presence there has continued right down through the thousands of years, despite the cruelest persecutions in turn by pagan Rome, Christian rulers, and invading Muslims. So for global political and strategic, ethical, Christian and liberal democratic reasons, America supports Israel without being forced to by their very small Jewish minority. There is nothing sinister about this, except of course to anti-democratic antisemites, for whom any support for Jews cannot be genuine and must have been coerced by hidden underhand means.
Dear Tun
Before 1948 , there was no Palestinian state. There is Jerusalem under the Trans-Jordan administration with the Palestinian living alongside the Jews and the Christians in Gaza, West Bank and the Old City. The Arabian states are not bothered at all with the dwellers and were pretty much busy with the oil finding in the peninsular. The Ottoman empire were crumbling and the British and the French were busy swapping land among themselves. The British started the land feud when it set the land partitioning amongst the Jews and the Palestinian. From what I see here , when the Jew set up a nation called Israel and grabbing the land from the Palestinian by setting up settlement , outpost and Kibbutz for the so call Natural population growth, it is acting exactly like what the US did when it acquire Texas and California etc from Mexico through population expansion and war (remember the Alamo) . There wasnt any doubt at that time that the Israeli nation born was religious in nature but it has to be remembered that Turkey and Jordan was not interested enough to manage and govern Jerusalem and its vicinity. They had their hand full with their own internal turmoil and the good thing is that Jerusalem is still being managed by a Muslim council and the West Bank and Gaza is still populated by the Palestinian . I believed that most of the Orthodox Jews were not happy at all with the formation of Israel as they are still waiting for their Messiah and his arrival will have to be prior to the formation of Israel . During the largest land grab in the 6-day war in 1967 , Moshe Dayan, the Israeli defense minister at the time of the war, stated that Israeli policy on the Syrian border between 1949 and 1967 consisted of “snatching bits of territory and holding on to it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us.” So , history shows us that Israel managed to get more land , Golan Heights , Sinai , West Bank etc . What does this tell us Tun is that , this is a land dispute and it has to be solve in the manner of a land administrator managing the expectations of two factions i.e who deserved what . Obama is trying to do just that . By sending George Mitchell to reiterate his 2 point on the two state solution and Freezing all settlement development , Obama is pushing Bibi and Peres to acknowledge that there will never be any peace without the land for the Palestinian. In this case , Tun , if you can remember the time when Yasser Arafat was offered by Yitzak Rabin almost 90% of West Bank and he rejected it , it was very much regretted , I would have taken whatever that was given and would launch the next negotiation with Rabin ( before he was assasinated) and Peres from a higher stand point. I can imagine when he died after the blockade , a fail man. Imagine after Rabin , Peres would not consider giving anything at all to Arafat. Arafat died in vain and dejected though all three were awarded the Nobel prizes , Arafat was a total failure . Obama must stood his ground , he should not allow Bibi (Netanyahu) and Peres any room to maneuver the Natural growth issues as well as the Wall separating the Palestinian land to capsized his peace road map . The Palestinian too must get their act together. This is 60 years of “peace” or imagine another 1000 years of war. Hopefully no more Qassam missiles flying into Eilat or Jaffa or tanks rumbling into West Banks. In my last visit to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem , during the second Intifada, I saw a country tired of war and eager for economic development. I saw the Palestinian working as Computer Programmers in Israeli companies , and I have a feeling that both the Palestinian and the Jews need each other to ensure the two state solution will work effectively for a mutually beneficial long term . Obama must be allowed time for his stage two of his road map to succeed and the barrier must come down. Let us move forward with the new beginning . After Cairo’s speech , 9-11 is no more.
Thanks Tun
Ayahanda Tun,
I am glad at least Mr Obama is trying to improve ties with the moderate muslim countries. No matter what happens, USA bond with Israel is unbreakable. Israel is the heart of USA’s economy and without Israel’s supports, they will die. The mistakes done by the previous Presidents were too great and they are imposible to be mend, at least not at this moment of time. Mr Obama or any new future Presidents of USA will continue to protect and support Israel’s aggression and it cannot be stopped.
However, due to this double standard and unfair policies, USA is no longer fit to be the world police in the perception of the world. One of the blogger think that USA should interverne with the conflict of North Korea and South Korea, I think Mr Obama should not send USA troops to North Korea because it is too dangerous for these troops. North Koreans are patriotic and they think that dying for the country is an honour. Moreover, North Korea had sent the 2 USA journalists to labour camp for 12 years, the N. Korean government is not going to hang them to death, so there is still room for peace negotiation.
Mr Obama must educate US and Israel citizens to accept other countries’ perception and mentality on liberty, freedom and religion
so that USA-Israel will be re-accepted by the world through heart to heart negotiation, not violence. Once USA-Israel use violence, other countries will follow!!!!
Good night Ayahanda Tun.
Dear Dr. Mahathir, Assalamalaikum and grace.
I would like to comment on your post and highlight my perspective view. I’ll leave the genuine post items while my comments are below each item in order not to loose focus. You’ll find probably some of my comments “sarcastic”, but they are just to emphasis the different interpretations we have.
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1. Finally Obama, the black President of the United States has made his much awaited speech outlining his views and policies on Islam, the Muslims and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is a carefully crafted speech and certainly it is different from those of George W. Bush or even other US Presidents.
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2. The arrogance and the preachings are out but two things American still stand out, and that is the United States is a world super power and that American loyalty to Israel is undiminished. Other things can change but not these two.
Being America a super power makes jealous many countries world wide. How did America became a super power? Did America became a super power because it is a dictatorship? Is there any other country in the world and especially in the Muslim world that is more democratic and free? It became a super power just because it is a free country. A free country is a load-stone to people and emigrants to find their chance and prosper. America’s loyalty to Israel is not because our “nice eyes”. The Americans are loyal to Israel and the Jews because the contribution of the Jewish people to America. Jews were and are dominant in the prospering America. Yes, there are some “bad” Jews who harmed America, no doubt. No one denies it. They are a dirty stain on the dress. But most of the Jews are loyal and positive Americans. Because those Jews are counted as “good” Americans, all administrations in America are listening to their voices. Sometimes America is criticizing Israel and “bashing”. But this is done like between two friends and not between two enemies. I hope Obama will not change the relation between America and Israel. Honestly, I suspect Obama to be a pro Israeli president since his outer dress is Christian, but his inner dressing is Muslim. Muslims may expect a flourishing relationship with America during his presidency while Israel and the Jews will pay the toll. Obama has just started his journey and we still don’t know the final stop.
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3. Hamas is asked to give up terrorism because like the struggles of the blacks of America and South Africa, violence achieves nothing. This is not quite true, at least with other national struggles for freedom and justice. The white Americans themselves fought a war against the British and another war to prevent the break-up of the United States.
Was the American independence war against English civilians or against the English army? Hamas is making their terror against innocent civilians by suicide bombers in malls, restaurants and buses. Is this your equalization of liberty war dear Dr. Mahathir? I must say that your understanding is biased and wrongly interpreting history. Let’s see the Hamas brave “freedom fighters” confront only the IDF. Because they are not able to defeat the IDF they prefer terrorizing innocent civilians. Is this is your equation balance for freedom fighting?
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4. Elsewhere the struggles for freedom and justice e.g. the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution just to name two, all involve violence.
Those revolutions were civil wars or “brothers wars of the same nation. Dear Dr. Mahathir, how can you compare that to violence of terror?
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5. It is not the Palestinians who choose violence. It was the Jews who violently seized Palestinian land, massacred the Arabs and expelled them from their country. With no one prepared to restrain the Jews, the beleaguered Palestinians had to resort to violence. The world, the United Nations, even fellow Muslims have deserted them.
Dear Dr. Mahathir, you are absolutely re-writing the history for your propaganda purpose. The first Zionists arrived to the land of Israel more than 100 years ago. They arrived to an almost empty land of swamps and desert. They arrived here without any tanks and weapons. Even so the Arab population created riots and pogroms in the new and old Jewish communities. Was that the violence of the Jews? In 1948, when David Ben Gurion declared the Independence of Israel according to the UN resolution, the Arab nations started a war against the Jewish community of just about 1/2 a million while the Arabs had already armed forces. Their violence against the Jews was unsuccessful and they lost parts of the land. They continued their violence in the future wars in 1967 and 1973. Every war they lost more land.
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6. I am against violence but when Israel seized more Palestinian land, build settlements, impose military rule, divide the Palestinians with high walls, barred the Palestinians from using roads built by the Israelis on Palestinian territory, denied the Palestinian right to a homeland, denied the right of return of the expelled Palestinian while upholding the rights of return of Jews who for centuries had been citizens of other countries, labelled Palestinians as terrorists while exonerating the Israelis for the massive attacks on Gaza and other places, left the Palestinians helpless when attacked by the Western-armed Israeli Military Forces, incarcerated thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails, unnecessarily provoke the Palestinians by Sharon’s visit to Jerusalem and many, many more assaults and provocations, is it any wonder that the Palestinians resorted to violence?
I’m also against any violence of any kind including Muslim’s terror. That land belongs to the Jews as equal or even more than to the Palestinians. It is our promised land and we were living here many years before the word Palestine and Palestinians were born. It was a Jewish land and kingdoms where you could hear “Shema Israel Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad” thousand years before the “Allahhu Akbar” was heard in that land. Dear Dr. Mahathir, your interpretation is wrong, no land is seized but returned to its genuine owners – the Jews. Jerusalem was a Jewish town much before the prophet Muhammad was born. Almost all Palestinians are not belonging to here. They are the descendants of Arab tribes that arrived from Arabia and North Africa. Even today you can find black skin Palestinians. The right to return is based on the principal if you are the land owner. The Palestinians are not the legitimate land owners in the eyes of the Jews as same as the Jews are not in the eyes of the Palestinians. The Jews are the legitimate owners. If the land belongs to the Jews, they may build fences wherever they find it beneficial to protect the citizens from terror. Those jailed and detained Palestinians are not God’s angels, they committed crimes and many terror actions against Israeli innocent civilians. They should thank God for our law is not including the death penalty. Can you show me one Muslim country in that world that is not executing a death penalty for terror or for even less criminal activities? Yes, we are bad people because we use western and self developed sophisticated weapons. We should provide the Palestinians some of our weapons to have a fair fight. Malaysia must send her army to help the Palestinians just to equalize the equation. Then if you win – you’ll be happy, but if you lose again – what would you say? Ariel Sharon has the right to visit anywhere he wants in his land including Jerusalem. Ariel Sharon or any other humble Jew don’t need the visiting visa from any person, a Palestinian, a Muslim or a Malaysian. When I see a Muslim passing in my Jewish neighborhood it is “provoking” me. Am I doing something violent to avoid it or react against Muslims? You are emphasizing the extrinsic issues among the principal issue. You are “crying” about the past instead of dreaming about the future. You must not forget the past but the future is more important. What benefit of that crying can the Palestinians gain?
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7. And now they are asked to stop violence to respect agreements. But what about the Israelis? Shouldn’t they be told to stop their massive violence; shouldn’t they be told to respect agreements and all the UN resolutions, such as those against their setting up settements on Palestinian soil, the occupation of land beyond the UN set boundaries for Israel?
I’m sorry dear Dr. Mahathir, but you are distorting history once again. Your dear friend Mr. Arafat was one of the ugliest manipulators of agreements and didn’t respect them, that’s why his people are suffering till today. He claimed talking about peace in his left hand while sending and funding terror in his right hand. His Oslo agreement was just another manipulation tactic or strategy to wipe Israel and the Jews off that land. The Palestinians agreed about stopping terror during the negotiations and they didn’t stop it for a single minute. What are you expecting us to do? To expend our other cheek for the slap?
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8. Obama stresses America’s strong bond with Israel. It is unbreakable. He recognises the aspiration for a Jewish homeland “rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied”.
True. But will Obama continue that? I doubt. His plan is to break that bond one day and he will do it in small steps instead in one big step. When he will break the bond with Israel, this will be your sign that the free world is not free anymore. I’ll not elaborate on that and let you think deeply about.
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9. But what is the tragic history? It is that of European persecution of the Jews, of the regular pogroms culminating in the Holocaust? It is not the doings of the Muslims. Certainly not the doings of the Palestinians.The tragedy was caused by the Europeans through the ages.
True. Most of pogroms committed by Christians and in Europe. There are some pogroms that Muslims also committed. A refreshing example is the pogrom in Hebron, 1929.
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10. Obama must know that before there was the United States, the Jews invariably fled to Muslim countries to seek refuge from European persecution. The Muslims did not turn them back. Before Israel there were millions of Jews in Muslim land. Even today quite a few are still there.
True.
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11. The Muslims have never been part of the tragic history of the Jews. Why then must they pay the price for the tragedy caused by the Europeans? Had the Europeans offered part of Europe or America for a Jewish state, there would not be the sustained violence that we see in West Asia. But the Europeans expropriated Arab Palestinian land to give to the Jews. Can an injustice in West Asia atone for injustice in Europe? The Muslim Arabs have to pay for the asylum they provided the Jews by having their land taken away to give to the Jews.
Primarily, the Jews lived in the land of Israel. They have been expelled by the Romans to Europe and other places. The native Europeans disliked the Jews as well and didn’t accept them. They wanted them to return to the place from where they arrived after the Roman empire collapsed. the Jews didn’t have the power and strength to go back to their land. The Europeans close the Jews in Ghettos just to keep them away from their native places. They did it just because they wanted the Jews to go away back home where they belong. After many years (about 2000 suffering years) the day came and the Europeans decided to remove the evil that was done to the Jews by the Romans and let them build their homeland in their land. The pioneer Jews didn’t expel any Arab from his land. They bought lands of swamps which were cursed and made their homes there. If Muslim countries don’t want the Jews being their citizens why should America or UK do so? Dear Dr. Mahathir, would you accept me as a Malaysian citizen? don’t tell me that I need to marry a Malaysian woman to become a citizen or to convert to a Muslim. Can Malaysia “donate” a portion of its own lands for the Jewish people to live? Why should America or any other country do so? There is no country in the world that is wanting to donate a land for the Jews. You know why? Because no one likes them to live on their land. Besides that, do you think, if such a program is on the table, the Jews will accept it and go to the other promised land? You’ll need to expel them by force once again. Is this what you want to see. This will not be but just a temporary event since Jews will always return to their genuine homeland and Jerusalem. This is our yearning to Zion.
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12. To make matters worse the Palestinian Arabs, Christians and Muslims, were violently expelled from Palestine. Israel is to be a racist state for Jews only.
Saudi Arabia, Iran, Malaysia are not Muslim states. Are those states for “Mooners” (Moon people)? You are going to extremism which you complained in a previous post. Israel is about to be a Jewish state but not only for Jews as same as Malaysia is a Muslim state and for other religions as well. It does not mean that Arabs, Muslims Christians and others cannot live in that Israel which is a Jewish state. As a fact we have other religions minorities in Israel with the full citizen rights, even without the racist “NEP” to promote Jews among the minorities.
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13. America accepts people of different races and religious affiliations. But it supports the exclusivity of Israel as a Jewish state.
I don’t really understand what that banner message is about. How are those different issues combined in the same sentence. Where is the linkage?
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14. The Palestinians had tried conventional ways of getting back their land. But conventional ways had failed. They have been forsaken by Arab and Muslim countries. Everytime they try on their own they lose more land because the Europeans and Americans gave military support to Israel.
Of course you are right. The Arabs tried to get their land in conventional ways like the war in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Yes, those were conventional and rational wars. They lost those wars, since Israel is still existing and they paid the toll by losing more land. Wasn’t their primer intention to throw us into the sea and get the land back? We are very sorry that we didn’t behave as expected and we didn’t lose the wars. Maybe it would be better that we lost them. Don’t you think?
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15. It is only after the failure of conventional wars of liberation that they resorted to unconventional attacks. Can they be blamed? Even the tiny mouse when driven into a corner will fight literally with tooth and nail.
The tiny mouse is Israel. Just count 1.4 billion Muslims are against and attacking Israel and the Jews who are just 13 million. We are really struggling with our nails to survive. I understand that you have mercy on the Jews and that’s why you are not winning the war against them. Thank you for the generous character. Thank you for letting the mouse stay alive so it can be tortured a bit more before the fatal slam.
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16. We can label the methods of the cornered Palestinians terrorism. But they are themselves terrified and those who inflict terror on them cannot be less of a terrorist than them. State terrorism is no less terrifying than terrorism by irregulars. Indeed State terrorism is more terrifying as we witnessed in Nazi Germany and in Cambodia.
Dear Dr. Mahathir, do you know? Let me tell you something. Israel built gas chambers to exterminate the Palestinians. Israel concentrated all Palestinians in death camps while Jewish SS guards are conducting the operation of the gas chambers. The Jews entered in the crystal night into all mosques of Palestine, broke all windows and burned all Quran books. The nazi Jews shaved all Muslim Shaikhs beards in the death camps. Millions of Palestinians are starving to death and are looking like walking dead bodies. The nazi Jews disconnected the Palestinians from any news network or phone lines. The Jewish doctor Mengele executed torturous medical experiments on Palestinian twins and women. I’m providing you a journalistic scoop. But as a good journalist, all what I say here must be confirmed. Maybe it is a trap?
Dear Dr. Mahathir, your demonizing people in the most ugly format and it hurts your intelligence as well as many other intelligent people, even in your own country. You are speaking to the emotions of people and not to their rationalism. That’s why I’m a bit sarcastic here as well as in the other comments.
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17. I will admit that Obama has brought change. It is a relief after eight years of Bush. But there is an area that he cannot change and that is the blind support for Israel. He has no choice. He will become a one-term President of the United States if he does not.
Obama, may want to change as much he likes. The real change is to be done by the conflict partners themselves. You think America is a super power and able to enforce it’s plans on the partners (especially on Israel), but I can assure you it is just a “tiger of paper”. Till now Obama was performing as a big talker. Let’s see if he is also a performer of practice. The next super power will be China, they don’t speak much but they do a lot (we may like it or dislike it).
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18. For all the talk about democracy in America, the American majority have no power to choose their President or their Government. That power lies with Israel. They can deny this. But that is the truth. The Americans have become the proxy of the Jews. The Americans will pay a heavy price for this.
Dear Dr. Mahathir, what are you complaining about? Now the American president is with Muslim roots (I still think he is a Muslim and not a Christian as he is claiming) http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/is-obama-christian-muslim-or-atheist-more-importantly-is-he-a-liar/ (watch the video on that page by scrolling down). The super power has fallen directly into the hands of a Muslim, a clever Muslim. Do you think that the ugly Jews can manipulate Obama? I think that now the super power is controlled by Muslims proxy and not by the proxy of Jews. Now it is your turn of the wheel to the top.
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May God bless you Dr. Mahathir and your family with good health, Wassalam.
Hanan, Jewish,
Israel.
Salam Tun,
I think you just summarised this middle east conflict and US role as easy to understand as possible. I think everybody now understand why connered palestinian throw the stones to israelis tank. i wish western media can be as open as you in telling the truth.
I would like to see these pro-US will try to justify US action as clear as you put it here. eg why they take palestinian land and simply claim it belong to Jews. why not egypt land? or saudi land? or europe or america?
Once i heard even Jews said they dont deserve israel as in their religion said they shouldnt have a country. i might heard wrong.
US is the proxy of Israel… i thought they are the su
Salam Tun,
I think you just summarised this middle east conflict and US role as easy to understand as possible. I think everybody now understand why connered palestinian throw the stones to israelis tank. i wish western media can be as open as you in telling the truth.
I would like to see these pro-US will try to justify US action as clear as you put it here. eg why they take palestinian land and simply claim it belong to Jews. why not egypt land? or saudi land? or europe or america?
Once i heard even Jews said they dont deserve israel as in their religion said they shouldnt have a country. i might heard wrong.
US is the proxy of Israel… i thought they are the super power. In actual fact Israel is actually the super power. US is only the puppet. Israel is the puppet master.
I wonder what non-Jews american will comment on this. they might disagreed openly but deep down they know the real facts and they might not care at all.
Salam Tun.
What exactly should he be doing?
Hellow wajaperak
Pls see this ancient artifact found in Jordan. It is not located in the Lourve in Paris.
You will note that the Kingdon of Israel is mentioned way back almost 2000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele
This is in reply to wajaperak.
//I need to remind you that life is all about belief.
There is no Land Of Israel.The Kings and leader of Israel that Hanan mentioned like Moses,Solomon and David is Muslim.So there is no documented fact about Israel before they invented it themselves.They ‘altered’ Torah ( In Islam we called it Taurat ) and many other thing’s to suit their Rabbi’s interpretation of life and religion.//
Belief in something without substance is foolish.
Muhammad may say that Moses, Solmon and David are muslims in the 7th century but it is an undeniable fact that they are jews. The Kingdom of Israel exist not just in text like the Torah but is backed by archeology.
Since Islam only started in the 7th century AD, and these people lived way back several thousands of years before Islam started, how can they be muslims?
Are you able to show proof that Moses, Solomon and David are not jews?
In Hebron there is an historical site called the Caves of the Patriach where 4 ancient couples were buried. Are these people not jews? Pls show proof that they are not jews.
You will also note that Isaac and his son Jacob (later called Israel) and their wifes are buried there.
Abraham other son, Ishmael (the father of Arabs) is not buried in that historical site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs
//Muslim times started in Phrophet ADAM time and not in Prophet Muhammad s.a.w times as many of you believes.//
Pls check when did the Muslim calendar started and compare that with when the Jewsih calendar started.
//So..Where do I get this ideas?..It was revealed to us in Al Quran.Well and properly documented free from human hand blemish of any kind..
Yeah..I know..I Know..
You will never believe this..
Well it goes to show how we should respect each other belief.
What you should have said is..
According to Jews…Or According to Christian…Or et cetera..//
How about from other sources that are non religion like archeology to show whether the Jews or Arabs lived in that piece of land in ancient times.
salam Tun,
to Andrew,
You have been misinformed.
“Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is absurd to reach so far back into the mists of history to argue about who should have Palestine today, and I apologise for it. Yet the Jews do this, and I must reply to their “historic claim.” I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago!
If you suggest that I am biased, I invite you to read any sound history of the period and verify the facts.
Such fragmentary records as we have indicate that the Jews were wandering nomads from Iraq who moved to southern Turkey, came south to Palestine, stayed there a short time, and then passed to Egypt, where they remained about 400 years. About 1300 BC (according to your calendar) they left Egypt and gradually conquered most
America has so much land… why not make a little Israel there? Since you have an unbreakable bond, you might as well let them move in with you!
If not… hey Germany might want to allocate some land for Israel… that might make things fairer ay?
I have to be honest I liked his speech, but that had more to do with his style and flair. But as dissected by Tun it still isn’t really fair for Palestine to give up their homeland for someone else’s doing.
Check out:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EATEeKJcTA
The History of Israel
Return of the Jews to the Holy Land(i.e Jerusalem) is one of the sign of the “Last Day”. It is clearly stated in the Quran, translated;
Dengan Izin Tun..Terimakasih..
Patrick Saw..
I feels sorry for you and sympathizes..It difficults to make a decent living and your cause is not helped by the people in power.So what is there to do? Complaints and highlight those issues or be patient and never give up like Sylvester Stallone and keep pushing his ideas for Rocky?
He was turned down for about what? 30 times from the producer he tried to make Rocky possible..Does he backed down? Does Rocky not good? Eventually he made it and who feels sorry for turning him down?
Patrick..Tun himself have his fair share of dissapointment in his ideas and wares..They were turn down too..But he preserves and when he have those succes his ideas more readily accepted..
So Patrick..you road to succes is far..Don’t like that kind of raid deters you..
Dengan Izin Tun..Terima kasih..
Dear Mr Andrew..
I need to remind you that life is all about belief.
There is no Land Of Israel.The Kings and leader of Israel that Hanan mentioned like Moses,Solomon and David is Muslim.So there is no documented fact about Israel before they invented it themselves.They ‘altered’ Torah ( In Islam we called it Taurat ) and many other thing’s to suit their Rabbi’s interpretation of life and religion.
//You have omitted the fact that before Muslim times, Israel (then known as Land of Israel)//
Muslim times started in Phrophet ADAM time and not in Prophet Muhammad s.a.w times as many of you believes.
So..Where do I get this ideas?..It was revealed to us in Al Quran.Well and properly documented free from human hand blemish of any kind..
Yeah..I know..I Know..
You will never believe this..
Well it goes to show how we should respect each other belief.
What you should have said is..
According to Jews…Or According to Christian…Or et cetera..
Dear Mr Andrew..If someone does not have the same faith as us..it does not mean him or her a pagan.Base on this criteria, we cannot imposed our belief and values on him or her..hence your comments on Tun oh having selective memory is far beyond reality…accordingly..
//Nice try but your article is again veiled in hatred and inaccurate historical facts//
I believe that you should rephrase those comments like..
In my opinion…Or I am in the belief that..I stated my faith that I disagrees about..
Don’t you think it is far more fair?..
Thank you
USA will pay the price soon! (don’t worry the Jews will pay them…with interest!)
However the sad thing is that innocent Muslims world over will become victims (targeted).
To all the so-called main-stream Muslim-Ulamak (Alamak..rather), head of hypocrite Muslim State and so on; and so-called moderates prepare yourselves for eternal life in hell (because you subscribe to secular ideology, a.k.a shirik!), you will soon taste life under the rule of ISRAEL lead by Dajjal.
maaf Tun
… ade pembetulan sikit (typing error) …
“…Macam mane kita nak kenal? Kalau bukan dengan izin Allah swt. Oleh itu hendaklah kita memohon pertolongan dari Allah swt agar kita TIDAK di tipu oleh yahudi atau pon mana penyangak di atas dunia ini…..”
Salam Tun,
Patrick Saw living in ‘difficult situation’ created by those not properly trained and incompetent officers.
This rash act cannot be condoned, therefore these type of rogue officers and their ‘head’ of department are not fit to be employed!
It is high time that they are immediately taken off the streets, they are a bunch of rogues!
Ada pihak yang mempersoal dasar2 yang dibawa oleh Che Det semasa menjadi PM ke-4.
Buktinya dalam video Language Kebangsaan – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cneEyAy9r1k
Apa pendapat Che Det? Boleh buat entri baru tentang video ini?
Terima kasih.
Salam Tun,
I rarely leave comments although I am a regular visitor here, about this topics, sometime ago when Obama won the election, I did say that Obama is just a new way of marketing to the citizens of the world nothing more, period. Just look at how the world accepted him, but when it comes to the certain group interests, it’s the same.
Try and read “International Jews” by Henry Ford, you’ll get the whole picture, all this are old news, nothing new. How the media played their role in putting Obama in place? Not during the campaign, much-much ealier than that, when Obama decided to run for Presidency, I have already predicted that he will win. Anyone still remember the movie such as Deep Impact? The Fifth Element? Head of State? 24?
Yes all those movies have African American President, lately movies with black president was quite a norm, it may not pave the way for Barrack Obama to win the election but it surely puts the idea into the head of the electorate in Americans, and willing to accept the idea,and they can research on how well American accept these movies and are they ready to accept this situation.
See how things work 🙂
Never say what you want but Craft the Situation that leads to it!
Baiklah Tun,
Dont want to take much space here
SALAM dan harap Tun & Keluarga sihat sentiasa.
Assalamualaikum..
Allah tidak akan mengubah nasib sesuatu kaum (juga individu)..
tanpa kaum (atau individu) itu sendiri berusaha untuk berubah..
Yahudi di Timur Tengah…
Kaum kafir di Malaysia pun membuat perkara yang sama..
1) Beli tanah orang Melayu… kerana Melayu yang nak jual..
2) Chin Peng Pejuang Kemerdekaan .. ada Melayu yang angguk..
3) Hindraf di biar membiakkan perkauman.. PM Melayu takut hilang kuasa nak ambil tindakan..
4) Along puluhan tahun di biar… Polis dan agensi penguatkuasa yang ramai Melayu buat tak nampak
5) Sorok barang-barang untuk naikkan harga… Menteri Melayu yang tak berani nak bersuara di depan saudagar kafir..
Saya amat berharap, dari Tun dan semua orang-orang besar Melayu di Malaysia.. Prihatin la..
1) Kenapa perlu di layan kehendak Majlis Peguam yang berapa kerat saja.. Orang Melayu dapat apa?
2) Kenapa perlu di layan gerakan hapuskan ISA, orang Melayu majoriti dapat apa?
3) Kenapa di layan permintaan Persatuan Cina tentang sistem Pendidikan di negara kita… Apa faedah untuk Melayu?
4) UMNO dah 40 tahun usahakan DEB dan masih gagal… Sampai bila?
Fikirkanlah nasib orang-orang Islam di negara kita. Selagi masih ada kuasa politik, buatlah sesuatu secepat mungkin.. Jangan sampai terlambat.
orang2kilang.blogspot.com
Dear Tun, salam mesra harap sihat sejahtera. Kiriman saya untuk tajuk ini…
Your article contains all the fair justification, right and reason for the Palestinian cause. I have nothing to add. However I wish to relate this conflict to our local political scene. It helps to understand the complexity and seemingly futile effort to challenge dominance. This is the comparison:-
…………UMNO AND PENDATANG vs ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS
US no longer display arrogance and preachings = Umno survives on arrogance (power) and lives on preaching (race and supremacy))
US is world super power (for Jews) = Umno is M
I totally agree with you.
There is also a conspiracy theory that Obama will be assasinated if he really ignore Israel; the price and the planning have already been set up by the pepertrators.
They are only waiting for the right time and occasion. It is going to be similar to the assassinations of the previuos US president with the authorities unable to find the people behind it.
I’ve always maintained for a black candidate that was in almost political obscurity four years ago to suddenly receive record breaking financial and media support in America – can only one thing : he’s the chosen puppet of an organisation.
Many people would refuse to believe this possibility. But time will tell and this speech by Obama – typically simplified by Tun – is where Obama’s stripes finally appears.
If anyone need to get better visualisation of how Obama is chosen as the perfect candidate – with his background and historical tie with Islam – you may want to read John Grisham’s book – The Appeal. After reading that, you may want to be less guilable.
salam Tun,
to Patrick Saw,
I symphatise with you man.I would certainly have bought one your t-shirts.
To have the ministry conficate your stocks without proper reasons as you claimed is shocking to say the least.
I call on the government to provide clear guidelines to what is deemed unsuitable.
Jeng3
Syabas Tun! I salute you.
English as compulsory SPM pass subject?
By : Suganthi Suparmaniam
KUALA LUMPUR, Mon:
Should English be made a compulsory passing subject in the Sijil Pelajaran Malaysia? This is the question thrown to the public by Education Minister Tan Sri Muhyiddin Yassin who wants to know if it should be done by the government.
comment:
Ya, saya setuju seratu peratus Bahasa Inggeris diwajibkan lulus dalam peperiksaan SPM dengan syarat guru Bahasa Inggeris hendaklah berkualiti dan mencukupi terutama di semua sekolah luar bandar. Jika ini tidak di sediakan saya rasa ramai penuntut luar bandar akan gagal untuk lulus dalam peperiksaan SPM.
Apabila ramai penuntut luar bandar gagal maka kita kelak akan kedengaran suara sumbang “menjerit” di depan Istana Negara supaya Bahasa Inggeris tidak diwajibkan lulus dalam peperiksaan SPM.
Dr M: Don
may be we should bring the palentinians here like the Bosnian, feed them, educate them, and send them back.
Obama, the black president with a white heart. Hence he has to think and talk like a white. He has to carry on the white man’s sacred mission of erasing the black dot in the history of their cruelty towards the Jews prior to WWII. Now that the Jews literally has the US etc in their pockets, who else can fit the bill as the world’s terror maker? The poor Palestinians, of course. With no “big brothers” to turn to definitely they became desperadoes and resorted to anything to take back their long-lost land which the white man had seized to create Israel to redeem their guilt and sins.
Well, lets see if Obama dares to deviate from the path taken by his predecessors. Chances are he may not complete his first term even.
Dr M
You have omitted the fact that before Muslim times, Israel (then known as Land of Israel) was inhabited by Jews for many many years. It was the Muslims who invaded the Kingdom of Israel. You stated that the Jews live on Muslim land- this is wrong, it is the other way round-it belongs the Jews in the first place.
You seem to have selective memory, conveniently omitting facts to build up your case. Nice try but your article is again veiled in hatred and inaccurate historical facts.
Macam ni la Tun,
Saya penah menanyakan pasal yahudi kepada ayah saya yang bernama Wahid Bin yahya. Saya katakan pada ayah saya, yang kita akan melaksanakan projek untuk mengalahkan Yahudi. Tahu tak Tun apakah jawaban ayah saya kepada saya?
“..buat amal ibadat lebih baik daripada kita lawan yahudi ni”
Apa yang saya dapat simpulkan daripada jawapan ayah saya ialah Yahudi itu dijadikan oleh Allah swt sebagai contoh dan perbandingan terhadap manusia-manusia terutama manusia yang mengelarkan diri mereka Islam yang memiliki sifat-sifat orang yahudi.
Orang yahudi memang lah kita tahu apa sifat-sifat dan ciri-ciri mereka. Kisah orang yahudi memang banyak diceritakan di dalam AlQuran terutamanya Surah Al BAqarah. Tapi bolehkah kita mengenalpasti orang-orang Melayu/Islam yang memiliki sifat-sifat orang yahudi… malahan mungkin dia lebih teruk daripada yahudi itu sendiri…? Macam mane kita nak kenal? Kalau bukan dengan izin Allah swt. Oleh itu hendaklah kita memohon pertolongan dari Allah swt agar kita di tipu oleh yahudi atau pon mana penyangak di atas dunia ini.
Untuk melawan orang Yahudi terlebih dahulu kita hendaklah melawan sifat-sifat yahudi yang ade dalam diri kita terlebih dahulu.
Cermin kan diri dahulu baru lah kita melihat orang lain. Bukan nak kata saya ni bagus sangat, cuma sekadar memberikan pandangan.
Ada perpatah bahasa mengatakan
“Silap hari bulan…Orang Melayu boleh menjadi lebih jahat daripada orang Yahudi itu sendiri” Anak haji…
renung-renungkan lah…. wahai bangsaku..
ASSALAMUALAIKUM..AYAHNDA & BONDA TUN..
THE GREAT AND HOT TOPIC PRESENTATION! THANK YOU AYAHNDA TUN.SO MANY VALUEBLE INFO I GOT THE MATTERS FRM ZERO,FEW AND TODAY COMPLETELY FOR MANY OF QUESTION ALREADY BE ANSWERED.FULL UNDERSTANDING SO WELL WHY THIS MASS HAPPENING FOR SOMANY DECADE.HISTORIES TELL US THE TRUTH ESPCIALLY WAT INSIDE AL-QURAN. ALL WAT WE READ AND LEARNED PLEASE TAKE NOTE ONLY THE GOOD FOR US TO APPLY IN OUR LIFE,COMMUNITY AND NATION.PLEASE OPEN OUR HEART AND LET US BE UNITY!!….WASSALAM.
By freedom&peace,
Seem you didnt agree with Tun’s writings and comments. You mentioned that you can pages and pages. But where are your fact$.. You didnt justify your comments. You only express your feelings. And at last, you just simply say that other peoples are anti-semitic..
FROM KUALA LUMPUR
On 2nd June 2009, the Publications & Quranic Texts Division of the Home Ministry raided my T-shirt stall in Central Market for the 3rd time and seized 83 shirts they claim are “obscene and contain Communist elements”. You can see the images they confiscated by following this link…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1um1_E2pOw
That the Ministry is clamping down on items they allege glorify (Chinese) Communism at the very moment our beloved leader is grinning for photocalls with the flatcaps in Beijing is flash-bulb irony so blinding it requires uncommon talent to miss it. The Ministry, of course, missed it by a mile.
Not many people know this but lightweight, low level officers of the Publications & Quranic Texts Division are entrusted with absolute power to make on-the-spot judgments about what is obscene, subversive, subliminally seditious, distasteful, inartistic, drug drenched, Communist, radical, Swedish. Er, ok, maybe not Swedish, but apart from that they can pass instant judgment on just about everything else under the sun. Worse, having judged, they are empowered to confiscate anything that offends their fragile sensibilities. They can say your cupboard is a badly disguised coffin, your toothbrush is a sex aid or that your plastic KL Tower statuette so thoughtfully bought for you by Aunt Mimi is plainly a male sexual organ. Having so proclaimed, they have the unchallengeable right to then cart everything away. In a blink of an eye one is judged, juried and executed by the same single entity. Issues of abuse of power loom large. You only have to click on the link above to realise that the Ministry tends towards irrational excitability in their interpretations, betraying the government’s impatience with the mildest satire and discomfort with the freedom of expression that is our guaranteed constitutional right.
What this means in practice is that the Ministry has a bunch of people running around seizing things under the flimsiest pretext. They took half my stock – 3 times – but they could just as easily have taken all. If you run a business selling things, they have an unquestionable right in law to do so and there is not much you can do about it. When a government deliberately denies a citizen his fundamental right to make a living, it had better have weighty, considered reasons for doing so. Here, we allow low level staffers to snatch away our rice bowls on a whim, without warning. Accountability, reason and judiciousness be damned.
By logical progression, since the images are now presumably “illegal”, are we to see enforcement squads jumping out from behind lampposts to rip T shirts bearing similar images off the backs of recalcitrant wearers? Will we have T shirt evaluators sitting alongside the H1N1 scanners at airports and entry points around the country? Will tourists be warned to leave their Viagra at home?
You may think that the images have no artistic or comedic merit. You may think them stupid and juvenile. But to say that they glorify Communism, are obscene and illegal, is really stretching it. And, surely, confiscation on those grounds is wholly unwarranted. Are we, as Malaysians, so sanguine that we accept the government has a right to intrude in such a way into our lives, compromise our professional integrity and devastate our businesses on nothing more than one person’s inadequate understanding of the word “obscene”??
You can read Malay Mail’s article about the raid here…
http://www.mmail.com.my/content/humour-denied-tshirts-alleged-%E2%80%98promote-communism%E2%80%99
You can read the Malay Mail’s editorial about the issue here..
http://www.mmail.com.my/content/mail-says-please-let-there-be-laughter
You can read the Star’s article about the raid here…
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/6/3/nation/4036306&sec=nation
Rgds
Patrick Saw
Salam Tun,
It can be better off. I couldn
Dearest Tun
I wish to have the talent and ability to express in writting the way you did. Your article is factual and make sense.
I recalled the debate between yourself and the late Dato Fadzil Noor the then president of PAS held in Dewan Bahasa in Kuala Lumpur during your tenure as PM many years ago .
Your view about Palestine and the Muslim World. In which you’ve said that the only way for he Muslim to defend themselve is through knowledge, unity and hard work. And not fighting and disunite ourselves.
With the proper use of Knowledge we shall discover and developed new technology. With unity we’ll have strenght. Combined it, we’ll have sufficient power and even be respected by our foe. When we are strong and powerful, our territory is safe.
I personally felt that what happened to the Palestinian may someday occur in Malaysia if the Malays failed to unite themselves and improve their level of knowledge and work harder for economic and academic improvement.
http://www.javno.com/en-world/olmert-calls-bush-to-force-change-in-un-vote_223617
Published: January 13, 2009 10:31h
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said a telephone call he made to U.S. President George W. Bush last week forced Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to abstain in a U.N. vote on the Gaza war, leaving her “shamed”. Pouring on political bravado in a speech late on Monday, Olmert said he demanded to talk to Bush with only 10 minutes to spare before a U.N. Security Council vote on Thursday on a resolution opposed by Israel calling for an immediate ceasefire.
“When we saw that the secretary of state, for reasons we did not really understand, wanted to vote in favour of the U.N. resolution … I looked for President Bush and they told me he was in Philadelphia making a speech,” Olmert said.
“I said, ‘I don’t care. I have to talk to him now,'” Olmert said, describing Bush, who leaves office on Jan. 20, as “an unparalleled friend” of Israel.
“They got him off the podium, brought him to another room and I spoke to him. I told him, ‘You can’t vote in favour of this resolution.’ He said, ‘Listen, I don’t know about it, I didn’t see it, I’m not familiar with the phrasing.'”
Olmert said he then told Bush: “‘I’m familiar with it. You can’t vote in favour.’
“He gave an order to the secretary of state and she did not vote in favour of it — a resolution she cooked up, phrased, organised and manoeuvred for. She was left pretty shamed and abstained on a resolution she arranged,” Olmert said.
Fourteen of the Security Council’s 15 members supported the resolution.
Tun,
Good Afternoon 🙂
I like your articles, but I perfer that U should focus on the homeland: MALAYSIA, than others.
U have the duty to do the MALAYSIA good!
No need to care for USA, they are too far & not listening, so why waste your effort to talk about them.
Even the UN is no point talking, everyone knows well.
Survival in MALAYSIA is the important factor.
eric
Apparently in the last part of his speech, Obama said “Assalammualaikum”. Luckily, he was not in Malaysia; otherwise the press and the Muslims here will cruxify him for saying it. Isn’t it sad that for non-Muslims like me, I could freely say it in the Middle East and would be welcomed with open arms and hugs and they would in greet me with “Mualaikumsalam”. But here in my own country, if I greet my Muslim country men that way, I will be given cold stares.
Definitely sir! The Americans WILL pay a heavy price for this. I’m loving that sentence.
Dear Tun,
This is an excellent and an eye-opening article based on the bitter reality on the ground.
Apart from this, I many times encountered in Haaretz and Jpost (online israeli newspapers) – the prase “promised land for zion” which they do not return to Palestinians. This means they are now imposing their religious belief on the people of other religion (the palestinians). This should be called a “cruelty” because if any muslim regime impose islamic belief on other people then these so-called liberals would rush to label it “islamic cruelty”.
One more thing, it is so disgusting and shameful that the Americans (people of the most powerful country) comply to Israelis……..if anyone could remember what Olmert once said that he called and asked Bush to be absent from the voting of UNSC resolution condemning the Israel for ruthlessly murdering the palestinian civilians (most of them women and children).
Salaam Tun.
18. For all the talk about democracy in America, the American majority have no power to choose their President or their Government. That power lies with Israel. They can deny this. But that is the truth. The Americans have become the proxy of the Jews. The Americans will pay a heavy price for this.
More anti-semitic garbage from a man who used to make sense. Your hatred for the Jews blinds you to your anger. You say you are against violence and you are affiliated to the Kuala Lumpur Foundation to Criminalise War. Yet you spent the whole article justifying violence.
Take a note from Gandhi: “An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.” Or do you have something against Hindus too?
I would personally find your article more balanced if you didn’t have so much hate in you.
Assalamualaikum Tun’
I just wished obama would see your blog, read it and understand the content and then act against the jewish state and solve the real basic problems that the Palestinian faced for decades…..
The truth is that no matter what the slogan that an american president brings….. change or what so ever, when he seats in the oval office those slogans are merely words that are only and partially used. The things that never change for decades is that the american foreign policies and their views towards israel, israel must exist no matter what the price and the Palestinians Arabs are no importance to them and last but no the least the Arab league is singing to the tune that the jewish are playing. Arab leaders are busy sitting on their big fat butt and doing no thing and they are not serious enough to solve the Palestinian issue even though they have the ultimate “weapon” now that could corner america to agree with the Arab agenda but they choose no to. By the word “weapon” I meant the wealth and money that the crude oil brings in time of financial crisis all over the world but oil producing country are not directly hit hard. Money is the bargaining chips but instead of control america businesses through buying share of those good media companies in america, they choose to remain fighting among themselve. Well thats is why Allah sent the best prophet Muhammad PBUH to teach these Arabs to be civilised people. I could understand how difficult enough for prophet Muhammad PBUH try to educate them.
Well anyways Tun, thank you very much for the good topic of discussions. I really wish that obama would read it and make the change like Micheal Jackson’s song “Man in the mirror” and make that change if he really believe that he could make that change.
Last but not the least, please send my deares regards to your beloved wife and your family. “Hidup Tun Dr Mahathir” and may Allah bless us all. Aminnnn…. Wasalam.
SALAM TUN,
WHAT YOU COMMENT IS TRUE. USA IS CONTROLLED BY JEWS AND ARABS HAVE TO DESTROY USA FIRST BEFORE THEY COULD DESTROY JEWS. BUT CAN THEY DO IT? ARABS COUNTRIES FINANCE USA AS GOOD AS FINANCE JEWS.WE HAVE NOTICED THAT JUST BECAUSE GEORGE BUSH BEING THROWN WITH BOOT BY AN ARAB, PEOPLE OF GAZA WAS PUNISHED.THE ARABS SHOULD BE PREPARED TO ATTACK USA ALL OUT ECONOMICALLY BY DISPOSING ALL USA BONDS AT VERY CHEAP RATES, BLOCK PETROLEUM AND STOP USING USD. THE ARABS HAVE THESE CAPABILITIES BUT JUST COULD NOT DO IT. WHY? IF ARABS REFUSE TO DO IT HAVING WEAPONS IN HANDS, I THINK IT IS A WASTE OT TIME TO TALK ON ARABS & JEWS PROBLEM.
WE ALSO NOTICE THAT MANY ARABS COUNTRIES DO NOT PRACTICE DEMOCRACY USA DARE NOT QUESTION. WHY? JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED OF THESE WEAPONS.
NASH
Salam Tun.
Memang betul cakap Tun.
Sebenarnya Obama dan AS harus ikhlas and terbuka dalam menyelesaikan kemelut Asia Barat. Mereka harus adil kepada kedua-dua pihak.
Kalau bukan kerana sifat ANTIBARAT, mungkin Tun sudah dilantik UN ENVOY ke mid east.
The Zionist Jews demanded that the perpetrator of the so called Holocaust to apologize and be brought to justice even as of today, yet they take themselves as innocent angels that cannot be judged for the crimes they are doing to the Palestinians. Their criminal actions cannot be criticized/condemned, as that would termed as ‘unproductively anti-semitic
Salam Tun,
Harap Tun sehat2 selalu…..
“Americans will pay a heavy price for this”
They will…
Hishammuddin For Umno-pas Talks If …
KOTA KINABALU, June 8 (Bernama) — Umno Vice-President Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Tun Hussein said Monoday Umno and PAS should engage in talks to ensure the well-being of the people.
“The issue is unity. The current global challenges demand that we should not merely be politicking. Administration and development of the country are more important agendas.
comment:
Lets see how far this political rhetoric can go. As I said earlier, don’t expect anything from the Muslim leaders, be it UMNO or PAS leaders. Leaders of both side just do not have the political will to unite the ummah.They have their own political agenda and vested interest. That’s their first priority. They don’t have the drive, desire and full commitment to really wanting to take care of the well being of their Muslim brothers. They don’t imbibe the true teaching of the Quran. They (UMNO and PAS) interpret the Quran to suit their own political ideology to the extent that they are making the ummah confused and disunited with no positive direction to look forward.
The Muslims are doomed to fail dulu, kini dan selamanya !! Why?
Simply because their leaders lack the WISDOM AND COMMON SENSE !!
Many statements made by the leaders of both parties reflect their poor maturity of thoughts. They are way below the benchmark of true Muslim leaders. Some of them are just HAPRAK and HP6 !!
English as compulsory SPM pass subject?
By : Suganthi Suparmaniam
KUALA LUMPUR, Mon:
Should English be made a compulsory passing subject in the Sijil Pelajaran Malaysia? This is the question thrown to the public by Education Minister Tan Sri Muhyiddin Yassin who wants to know if it should be done by the government.
comment:
Ya, saya setuju seratu peratus Bahasa Inggeris diwajibkan lulus dalam peperiksaan SPM dengan syarat guru Bahasa Inggeris hendaklah berkualiti dan mencukupi terutama di semua sekolah luar bandar. Jika ini tidak di sediakan saya rasa ramai penuntut luar bandar akan gagal untuk lulus dalam peperiksaan SPM.
Apabila ramai penuntut luar bandar gagal maka kita kelak akan kedengaran suara sumbang “menjerit” di depan Istana Negara supaya Bahasa Inggeris tidak diwajibkan lulus dalam peperiksaan SPM.
Salam Tun
As usual your article is concise, comprehensive, correct, complete, interesting to read and written in clear language. I cannot add more to it … the points given on what the Jews have done to the Palestinans are very good and wideranging.
What I can tell from the blog, is that you have a very deep and wide knowledge on Palestinan. You need to really hold a lot of talks in the West (and over here – well all over the world really!) and use your influence and fame to educate the Western world. Starting with the academicians who normally attend your talks. Also you being President of a NGO to help look after Gaza and Palestinian welfare is very good. At least you have an organization…an entity….for focus.
This blind loyalty to Israel and Americans being ignorant of the real truth and history of Israel is the biggest stumbling block. They don’t know why there are supporting Israel.
I am scared if Obama crosses the line than he might be ass…..nated. But it is Allah SWT Who Takes and Gives life.
Salam Tun,
It has always been the case that the exproriation of land is always the cause of fighting by the rightful owner to regain the land that once belonged to them, in this case; the Palestinians. I think it also happened in our backyard, and is still happening!
The United States having allowed the state of Israel to influence them, through political bribery, has enabled Israel’s sponsored terrorism to continue the oppression on the Arab Palestinians muslims and christians.
As long as the Israeli government continued racist policy prevails, backed by the corrupted U.S. government, the land taken will not be returned and the killings of the Palestinians by the Israeli’s military will continue.
The American citizens and its patriots must stop allowing the Israel government to continue pushing the U.S. government from being a menace to the world. It is high time that the peace-loving Americans tell the U.S government to deny Israel for its dirty dream of conquering the world using the American young and old soldiers to kill and die for them. The American soldiers are dying and still counting, the Israelis are laughing with joy!
salam Tun,
We have known all along the deceit and sheer brutalities of the Jewish Zionist State.Simply put…
THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL TERRORISM IN THE MID EAST AND ALSO THE WORLD!
THE BIGGEST LAND ROBBERS IN MODERN TIMES AND ALSO THE NEW NAZIS IRONICALLY WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORTED BY THE WESTERN POWERS.
Thanks Tun for highlighting this issue relentlessly.This is gross injustice inflicted on the Palestinians and the west are trying to deny their rights and leave them with no choice but to resist with sticks and stones and home made rockets.
As one commentator Chris put it,
IT’S DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH!
And we root for the David in this saga.Viva Palestine!
Wassallam
Jeng3
p/s – readers can judge for themselves who is the racist here.I’m honoured that Ravi took exception to my comments about his abusive nature.
It’s simple really,if you don’t show respect to our former PM when commenting and critisizing,then we will give no respect to you.
It hurts,doesn’t it?
To freedom&peace,
Sri Lanka, Darfur/Sudan, Swat Valley/Pakistan, Somalia? Huh, such ignorance! This conflict have been raging on for decades. Since 1940s if im not mistaken. Do you know how Israel came to be? Wikipedia or google it!
The continuos injustice and the one-sided support of the USA to Israel have made us muslims come up with a conlusion that you can conveniently say is discriminating and etc. But is that a surpise, considering chedet’s article points number 5 to 7?
I’m sure the death toll of a conflict going on for decades is more than the the conflicts you mentioned. However, with that said, I’m not saying those conflicts are less important.
Assalamualaikum dan Salam Sejahtera.
I totally agree with this paragraph even though it hard to take as true by americans…
18. For all the talk about democracy in America, the American majority have no power to choose their President or their Government. That power lies with Israel. They can deny this. But that is the truth. The Americans have become the proxy of the Jews. The Americans will pay a heavy price for this.
Thank you Tun.
Take care.
Yahudi tunggang harimau(US), kuat sungguh pakatan mereka di US, salah satu agenda mereka bagaimana cara menguasai dunia ialah menguasai negara paling kuat di dunia. Saya rase ramai patut baca buku Henry Ford mengenai yahudi di US.
Salam hormat buat YABhg Tun berdua.
1. Saya bangga dengan pernyataan berani Tun ini. Mengkritik tokoh dunia secara terang di dalam arus media alternatif kerana Tun percaya kepada kebenaran yang cuba disembunyikan.
2. Mudah-mudahan kritikan Tun akan membuka ruang untuk kritikan yang lebih banyak yang turut disuarakan oleh tokoh lain selepas ini, sehingga President US itu sendiri merasa ‘panas punggung’ mempertahankan hujah-hujah beliau yang ketara berat sebelah.
3. Di pihak kita pula, khususnya bangsa Melayu seharusnya dijadikan iktibar keadaan yang serupa akan terjadi kepada kita jika kita tidak bersatu dan tidak mempunyai ilmu. Bukankah kita pernah dijajah dan kesan penjajahan masih lagi terasa sehingga sekarang?
4. Sayang seribu kali sayang jika bangsa Melayu khususnya dan umat Islam amnya jika tidak juga mahu berubah dan bersatu menentang musuh yang sebenar yang sentiasa mencari jalan kasar dan cara halus untuk ‘mengkeldaikan’ kita.
Semuga Tun dicucuri rahmat dan kekuatan dari Allah untuk meneruskan perjuangan…
Jaga diri Tun berdua.
SALAM, TUN
1. SAYA MOHON MAAF KERANA TIDAK MEMBERI ULASAN KEPADA UCAPAN OBAMA SEBALIKNYA SAYA INGIN MENYENTUH TENTANG ULASAN TUN SEBAGAIMANA DILAPORKAN OLEH UTUSAN MALAYSIA PADA 9 JUN 2009. TUN MENYEBUT BAHAWA JIKA KITA TIDAK MEMPELAJARI ATAU MENGUASAI BAHASA INGGERIS, ORANG MELAYU DAN RAKYAT MALAYSIA AKAN BODOH.
2. KALAU BENARLAH APA YANG DILAPORKAN OLEH MEDIA TERSEBUT, SAYA AMAT KECEWA DENGAN TUN KERANA MENGELUARKAN KATA-KATA TERSEBUT. NAMAPAK JELAS BAHAWA IDEA TUN TIDAK BOLEH DISANGGAH DAN KITA HARUS MELIHAT BAHAWA ADA BANYAK CARA UNTUK MELAKUKAN SESATU PERKARA BAGI MENCAPAI MATLAMAT YANG SAMA.
3. APABILA KITA MELAKSANAKAN SESUATU PROJEK ATAU PROGRAM, KITA PERLU MELAKUKAN KAJIAN YANG MENYELURUH. LIHAT APA DAPATAN DARI KAJIAN ITU. JIKA KAJIAN ITU TIDAK MENYOKONG KEPADA PENERUSAN PPSMI KITA HARUS AKUR KEPADA KAJIAN TERSEBUT. ASALKAN KAJIAN ITU ILMIAH MELAINKAN KALAU ADA ORANG YANG BIAS DALAM KAJIAN ITU…..
4. KITA TIDAKA BOLEH MELIHAT BAHAWA HANYA DENGAN BI SAHAJA KITA BOLEH MAJU, BANYAK FAKTOR LAIN YANG MENYUMBANG KEPADA KEMAJUAN SESUATU BANGSA DI DUNIA INI.
4. SAYA TELAH NYATAKAN PENDAPAT SAYA BAHAWA KITA HARUS BERBALIK KEPADA BAHASA MELAYU SELARAS DENGAN AKTA PENDIDIKAN DAN KITA AKUI BAHAWA BAHASA MELAYU ADALAH DIJADIKAN BAHASA KEBANGSAAN DAN JUGA BAHASA PERPADUAN. AGAK ANIH KITA MENGAKUI BM SEBAGAI BAHASA KEBANGSAAN TETAPI DALAM MASA YANG SAMA KITA RAKYAT MALAYSIA TIDAK MENGGUNAKAN NYA SECARA MELUAS DISETIAP PERINGKAT. ADAKAH ITU ANEH NAMANYA……
5. KITA JUGA HARUS MELIHAT SECARA MENDALAM TENTANG PENGAJARAN BAHASA INGGERIS ITU SENDIRI….SEBENARNYA INI YANG HARUS DIPERDEBATKAN DAN DIBERI ULASAN OLEH KITA SEMUA. KALAU KEBOLEHAN RAKYAT KITA DALAM BI LEMAH, KITA KENA LIHAT KEPADA PENGAJARAN BAHASA INGGERIS BUKAN MELAKSANAKAN PPSMI. LEBIH MALANG LAGI SEKARANG GURU BAHASA INGGERIS DAPAT ELAUN BISP YANG MANA TAK LOGIK KERANA MENGAJAR BI ADALAH TUGAS HAKIKINYA.
6. SAYA JUGA HAIRAN ORANG MELAYU YANG INGIN MEMERTABATKAN BANGSANYA MELALUI BM DENGAN MEMBATALKAN PPSMI DIKATAKAN MACAM-MACAM…..KITA JANGAN SAMPAI ORANG LUAR MENEGUR KITA KENAPA TIDAK BATALKAN SAHAJA PPSMI DAN GUNAKAN BAHASA MELAYU SEPENUHNYA DALAM PENGAJARAN DAN PERKUKUHKAN PENGAJARAN BAHASA INGGERIS DISEKOLAH. KALAU INGIN LEBIH PROFESIONAL LAGI KITA HARUS MENGUBAL DASAR BAHASA DI NEGARA KITA SECARA KESELURUHAN.
7. PADA MASA KINI RAMAI ORANG YANG MENYALAHKAN TUN BERKAITAN DENGAN PPSMI. SEKARANG KERAJAAN NAJIB SERBA SALAH, DAN LEBIH MALANG LAGI PEMBANGKANG TELAH MENGAMBILALIH ISU INI.
8. SAYA MENYERU DAN MEMOHON KEPADA KEPADA TUN SUPAYA KAEDAAN INI PADA MASA HADAPAN TIDAK DIROSAKKAN LAGI. BUKAN NIAT SAYA UNTUK MENGAJAR TUN, TAPI SEBALIKNYA TUN HARUS MENYERAHKAN ISU INI KEPADA KERAJAAN NAJIB SEKARANG. TUN TIDAK ADA HALANGAN UNTUK MENGUBAH DASAR INI UNTUK KEBAIKAN MALAYSIA SECARA KESELURUHAN.
9. UNTUK MAKLUMAN TUN, SUDAH KEDENGARAN PELBAGAI UGUTAN TENTANG PERKARA PPSMI INI. ANTARANYA…JIKA PPSMI TIDAK DIMANSUHKAN MEREKA AKAN PASTIKAN DALAM PILIHANRAYA YANG AKAN DATANG KERAJAAN NAJIB AKAN TUMBANG ……..DALAM HAL INI ORANG MELAYU AMAT DISINGGUNG DAN BERDIAM DIRI TANDA PROTES DAN AKAN DITERJEMAHKAN KEPADA UNDI DALAM PILIHRAYA YANG AKAN DATANG.
10. SAYA JUGA BERHARAP ISU PPSMI INI TIDAK DIJADIKAN PUNCA PERTELINGKAHAN ANTARA TUN DENGAN KERAJAAN SEKARANG DAN KITA JUGA BIMBANG MUNGKIN NAJIB AKAN DIGULINGKAN……
SEKIAN, SEMOGA MENDAPAT ULASAN DARI KAWAN-KAWAN….
Sir,
You’re absolutely right about the American/Israeli/European connection. No fault of the Palestinians to fight back for their land. The thing is, they are fighting a losing battle. It is a ‘David vs Goliath’ situation. The biblical story tells us that David, a Jew, slew Goliath a Philistine with only a sling shot. Now the situation is reversed with David being the Palestinians and Goliath the western superpowers. David still has the sling shots while Goliath has all the nuclear missiles. A terrible imbalance. Well, hopefully God intervenes on the side of the oppressed.
SALAM TUN, MOGA SIHAT HENDAKNYA. KERAJAAN PERPADUAN DIHARAP TUN DAPAT MEMBUAT ULASAN MENGENAINYA. NAMUN PADA SAYA TIDAK LAIN DAN TIDAK BUKAN IANYA HANYA INGIN MENYELAMATKAN PAS DARI KES LIWAT ANWAR PADA JULAI INI. PAS TIDAK DAPAT MENEPIS SEGALA BUKTI DAN KETERANGAN PADA PERBICARAAN INI NANTI. PAS INGIN SELAMAT DARI BALA YANG AKAN MENIMPA PKR, MAKA KERAJAAN PERPADUAN LAH JALAN TERAKHIR BAGI PAS.
HARAP TUN DAPAT ULAS AKAN KERAJAAN PERPADUAN INI. KAMI MEMERLUKAN PANDANGAN TUN DALAM HAL INI.
KERAJAAN PERPADUAN BAGI MENYELAMATKAN PAS DARI BENCANA PADA JULAI INI!!!
http://www.gomounited.com/2009/06/kerajaan-perpaduan-demi-menyuci-dosa.html
Thank you for a good analysis of Obama’s Cairo speech. Jewish criticisms of this speech are irritating. World politics do not necessarily follow the truth, it follows ease of access, business and egotism.
Salam Tun,
Muslim country use to be only 5 country 50 years ago….
now it has 52 country.Do Tun think these country got independent like wat ghandi do when India got independent.It was ahimsa not with guns and killings innocent…muslim wage the war with killing innocent terorising and so on to get independent the 52 muslim country..why Tun got so disturbed with only 1 jewish country.Muslim countries also protecting TWO Buddhist terrorist governments of Myanmar and Sri Lanka so call its internal affairs of the country.
Salam buat Tun berdua moga dirahmati Allah s.w.t.
1.Seperti yang telah saya beri pendapat tempoh hari bahawa terdapat beberapa perkara yang tidak kena dengan salasilah keturunan Palestin ini.
2.Rakyat Palestin memerlukan pemimpin seperti Salahudin Al-Ayubi(tentera)atau pun dari keturunan Nabi s.a.w (agama Islam) untuk memimpin mereka dalam mengukuhkan keimanan mereka kepada Allah s.w.t.
3.Taksuban Fatah untuk berperang menyebabkan peristiwa berdarah Syakilla berlaku menyebabkan usaha perdamaian mula dirintis… tetapi seperti yang dikatakan ada yang tidak kena dengan salsilah dalam diri rakyat Palestin.. sebaliknya.. menyokong pula Hamas untuk berperang…
4.Saya percaya kita sebenarnya terkesan oleh kematian kanak-kanak kecil..,wanita..,golongan tua yang tidak berdaya bila berlakunya serangan oleh tentera Yahudi…
5.Malah Dalam Islam sendiri Nabi s.a.w telah berpesan tiada pembunuhan kaum wanita..,kanak-kanak kecil..,golongan tua yang tidak berdaya oleh tentera Islam.
6.Jangan harap !!! tentera Israil yang berbangsa Yahudi akan mengikut seruan tentera Islam…malah tiada langsung usaha oleh pihak Hamas melindungi kanak-kanak serta orang awam ini mengikut cara yang sebetulnya.
7.Puak pengempur Hamas ini sebaliknya berlindung dalam lubang-lubang sambil membiar kanak-kanak berkeliaran dalam kawasan darurat mereka tampa dilindungi dari peluru-peluru yang kuasanya berganda kesannya atas manusia.
8.Sinario sekarang.. peperangan yang telah sampai kepada penggunaan senjata atom yang amat dahsyat kesannya terhadap manusia.. menuntut umat Islam lebih mengutamakan perdamaian daripada berkeras dalam peperangan sesama negara.
9.Agama Islam lahir sebagai agama penyelamat…maka ketenteraan dalam Islam perlu mengutamakan aspek menghasilkan kelengkapan tentera yang dapat menghindarkan kesan bom atom ini.Kalau tiada keupayaan harus mengusahakan proses perdamaian..
10.Ucapan Obama boleh kita katakan bukan perisai-perisai mempertahankan peluru-peluru dari menembusi golongan kanak-kanak..,wanita..,golongan tua tidak berdaya ini..sebaliknya seperti pemimpin yang selalunya memberi kenyataan kesal atas peristiwa yang telah berlaku..(pelampau Islam)yang pada pendapat Rimba Emas juga ada pelampau dalam agama lain.
11.Perlu kita ingat Palestin dan negara Asia barat yang lain ialah negara yang menerima agama Islam melalui penyebaran oleh sahabat-sahabat Nabi s.a.w..sebab itu mereka bermazhab yang berlainan..tidak seasli seperti golongan Nabi s.a.w yang berada di wilayah Arab Saudi.
12.Akibat penjajahan kebanyakan negara ini tidak mengamalkan undang-undang Islam keseluruhannya sebaliknya amalan Demokrasi diedaptasikan dalam urusan pentadbiran mereka termasuklah urusan ekonomi..
13.Demokrasi diciptakan oleh umat agama Nasrani dan Yahudi dalam pentadbiran..salah satu sebabnya kebebasan untuk memerintah oleh hukum ciptaan manusia.
14.Dalam Demokrasi mereka boleh menidakkan hukum-hukum Allah s.w.t mengikut acuan mereka…contohnya hukum-hukum Allah s.w.t kalau dinilai untuk kepentingan mereka akan berlawanan dengan yang ditetapkan oleh Allah s.w.t..nauzubillah))))))
15.Allah s.w.t maha pemurah.. memberi rezeki kepada semua manusia.. termasuk mereka yang tidak menyembahnya…
16.Marilah kita menyembah Allah s.w.t yang maha berkuasa…
17.Wallahua’lam
being stupid & stay neutral is not a Sin, but if being stupid & being used to do bad is a Sin.
looking at the history, there is SURE a good reason why the Jewish was hated by so many until they are willing to mass massacre them from time to time. for sure there is a good reason. right? it is starting to gets clear. the TRUTH will prevail when the dust settled down.
sebagaimana yang Tun pernah katakan :
“Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.”
Berikut di senaraikan berberapa time line bagaimana Yahudi mengatur untuk menakluki dunia :
Source : http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Rothschild-timeline.htm
1776: Adam Weishaupt officially completes his organisation of the Illuminati on May 1 of this year. The purpose of the Illuminati is to divide the goyim (all non-Jews) through political, economic, social, and religious means. The opposing sides were to be armed and incidents were to be provided in order for them to: fight amongst themselves; destroy national governments; destroy religious institutions; and eventually destroy each other.
1790: Mayer Amschel Rothschild states,
“Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.
1791: The Rothschilds get, “control of a nation’s money,” through Alexander Hamilton (their agent in George Washington
check this out…the arrivals episode 1 to 44…
this is a true documentary….
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CB704045F6979F23&search_query=the+arrivals
Assalamualaikum Ayah Det, Mama & family,
I pray that this finds Ayah and Mama in the best of health..What is written about the Americans are true to the fact..It is a that the super power only picks on the weak and not the ones with the mighty powers to retaliate. What a shame – eg..why do they not launch an attack just like what they did to iraq and afghanistan to north korea or china?? it is puzzling … weapons of mass destruction was the key word they used for launching attacks on the weak nations and knowing very well that these 2 nations will not have the ability to retaliate. why don;t they launch an attack on north korea which has tested their nuclear power very recently?? …it’s a joke when i came across reading an article that the US was about to launch an attack on north korea but chickened out when north korea made a threatening statement of directing and positioning their nuclear weapons towards the USA. abruptly, all intentions to attack north korea came to a HALT..and even the sanctions imposed on north korea is not successful..the americans just shot themselves in the foot.. i hope the day will come when the americans will pay for the unjustly ways that they have handled international issues especially issues pertaining to the muslim world. how can a president be controlled like a puppet by the jewish community?? i just wonder..i also wonder why did hitler massacre so many jews??..did he manage to get a vision that the jews will be ruining the world in the future??..the fact that he missed out on an outright extinction of that particular tribe of future terrorists is just too bad..
obama will bring about some changes without a doubt but how effective will the changes be??..with restrictions and conditions imposed by the jewish community which controls practically the US and world economies..so what are we to expect from the changes – positive or negative changes?? it would be a vertical uphill task for obama and i hope & pray that obama has guts’ of steel to make those positive changes..no one expected obama wld be elected president as he is not from the ethnic white tribe..but then miracles do happen..
all we can do is hope and pray that the sensitive issues of the world are not blown out of proportion …if it does, then i can only say that world war IV will be fought with sticks and stones..and we will be back to th caveman’s era..
that is all i can comment for now. i apologise if my comments had provoke anyone or any party as it is only my 2 cents worth of thoughts and it is not meant as provocation.
my warmest regards to Ayah Det, Mama and family. May the grace of Allah the Almighty be upon you and your family.
Wassalam…Suffian..
Dear Tun,
I love your thoughts on Obama’s speech. They think that we have forgotten about the history on Palestinian land. The jews never in history have their own any state nor Country, what more LAND! They should be ashamed of themselves. I just hope that Obama reads your Blog.
You are obsolutely correct, Obama has got no choice. When he took up the job as the President of the United States, little did he know about the heavy responsibility he has to carry in this part of the world too.
Well done Tun! Never ever, stop putting pressure on them!
My personal thought… I wish the Arab countries could unite and support the Palestinians, instead on being so selfish…
Assalammualaikum dearest Tun, Everyone should read this article by Tun , so that they will understand on why the Palestinians keep on fighting with their own bare hands , by throwing stones, just like the tiny mouse, who fought with tooth and nail, when he is cornered..Without any shadow of doubt, Obama will be a one-term President if he does not dance to the tune of the JEWS. Praise be to Allah, Chin Peng, the leader of the Malayan Communist Party did not win the war with the British and the Malaysian people, otherwise we would have seen the same situation here.Yet there are Malaysian liked -JEWS, who want to bring back Chin Peng and revive the MCP. These people should be arrested and put in jails for trying to support the Banned MCP.During the Emergency even Communists supporters were arrested and detained under ISA.
Well, proxy is customarily having limited knowledge even look and talk smart….. Palestinians should be proud by themselves because not ‘deal’ with proxy…..
Assalamualaikum wbt. Tun.
Nice review.
I just want to ask you a simple question.
Do you support 2 states solution?
Thank you.
Semoga Tun dan keluarga diberkati sepanjang masa dan dilimpahi ilmu pengetahuan untuk dikongsi dengan seluruh umat dunia.
Ahli bahasa kita seharusnya membuat kajian agar lebih ramai dari cerdik pandai di negara kita boleh menulis dan berhujah seperti Tun. Sungguhpun semua sedia maklum apa yang dikata oleh Tun, tiada yang boleh atau ‘berani’ menulis di dalam bahasa yang tegas dan ringkas.
Mungkin Tun juga boleh berkongsi dengan kita kaedah-kaedah yang diguna oleh Israel sehingga mereka boleh mengaburi dan mengawal USA dan UK untuk kepentingan mereka. Secara kasarnya adalah dengan menguasai ekonomi, pendidikkan dan media. Secara terperincinya masih belum boleh dijelaskan dengan tepat oleh mana-mana pihak. Bukan saja dunia akan sedar dengan kaedah Israel ini, tetapi kita semua dapat juga belajar dari Israel agar kita juga dapat mempengaruhi kuasa besar dunia yang mungkin akan bertukar ganti.
Israel sememangnya licik penuh dengan tipu muslihat. Hanya pejuang berani dan tajam seperti Tun saja dapat meringkaskan muslihat tersebut.
Tuhan maha mengetahui dan menjaga hati budi Tun. Semoga perjuangan ini direstui oleh Nya.
Tun,
Whatever others may say about Obama,I believe he is a man of Peace.He wants to give peace a chance.He preaches negotiation through dialogue.He is willing to listen.He clearly supports the Jews but he also said that Palestinians’ human rights for democracy & home ownership must be respected.All US Presidents had been supporting the Israeli cause to establish & retain their sacred homeland in Israel.They fought with bloodshed to build this home.Obama’s hands seem to be tied what with such a powerful Jewish lobby in US & Europe.The Jews control the US economy & so invariably they steer the course of action for the US govt.With Obama’s willingness to engage the Muslims through peaceful dialogue tension is somewhat reduced in the Middle -East at least.We just have to continue to pray for world peace.That is as much the ordinary world citizen is able to do!!
RT
Assalamualaikum Tun,
Bravo. Excellent points.
On point 17 & 18 – This is researched & agreed by Prof John J Mearsheimer & Prof Stephen M. Walt (both Americans) in their book “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”.
One of the suggestions is :
“While affirming its commitment to Israel’s security within its pre-1967 borders, the United States should make it clear that it is dead set against Israel’s expansionist settlements policy – including land-grabbing “security fence” – and that it believes this policy is not in America’s or Israel’s long-term interests.”
May be Tun, we should try to get Americans (free distribution may be?) in particular their President to read this book. (I wonder if he had?)
Thanks
I must say that your history is very well written…It is true the western and the europe has sort to violence to achieve independence, I cant seem to find the logic why would they want to lecture us on this….
Islam has thought us the way of peace….Even the rules of war in Islam is the best there is….
I must say the problem is not with the muslims who turns to war to gain independence, its the westerners who didn’t allow them to…
Why aren’t we given the opportunity to fight for ourselves?? If in the law, you cannot kill someone but it is okay if its for self-defense…I guess the muslims are doing just that….
I must say that it is not entirely the palestinians fault, it is partly our fault for not giving full support…..We should unite with one another…..Its how the Americans unite their states in effort to chase out British in the 1700s….
I would like to congratulate dear Dr. for making this clear for everyone that no matter how much the Americans want change…They can’t change that much….
Salam Tun,
Mmg frust biler bercerita pasal Palestine ngan israel issue ini.
Wanna look this things as plain as possible?
Or wanna looks as fair being fair?
Then the Jews revenge/hate should go with the European!
And should be going toward the Christian not Muslims!!
It’s hard being a Muslim! Individual & in community!
Struggling all the times, but logically thinking, when a promise of Heaven is upon u, bear in mind this is not a small matters.
So I guess the Muslims in War zone, Allah s.w.t Rahmat will be upon them. Insya-Allah.
(^^)
Dear Tun,
I think God should do something whereby tomorrow all human beings are suddenly Buddhists following the “Middle Path” and non-violence.
Peace will reign in the world and everyone will live happily.
Best Regards,
Ataturk
Che Det…
Might you Che Det and the entire readers of this CheDet.co.cc haven’t watch this documentary film by the subject : “The Obama Deception” from producer Alex Jones. ( http://www.obamadeception.net )
Please feels free to read the review and watch it online (full lenght) at :
http://www.infowars.com/review-the-obama-deception-by-alex-jones/
Regards,
Luqmanul Hakim bin Abd Rahim bin Abdul Wahab
URL : http://LuQiee.Livejournal.com
Email : [email protected]
Assalamulaikum wr wb Tun,
This people never listen and learn from history because they are super power. Allah s.w.t. will teach them for every innocent people they were killed in Palestine. They never recognize the Palestinians human rights and their home land freedom.
One day the American will realise and suffer for their wrong doings by giving exclusive rights to Jews.
You sour disposition just cannot accept progress even though Obama has taken the steps to resolve the Israel-Palestine issue so early in his Presidency.
Obama does have huge obstacles to overcome in his own backyard (USA) and you should be reaching out to see how you can help instead of being the thorny doubting Thomas. And yes, USA, France and Britain have burnt their bridges and cannot back away now from supporting Isarel to the end. But that does not mean the Palestinians’ cause is lost,especially when a sitting USA President has clearly condemned in his Middle East speech the building of new settlements and has pushed forward a 2-State solution.
Thus Obama has an agenda that transcends religion and race. But you only have an interest in Palestine based on Isalm. Were it not for that, and let’s call a spade a spade, you would have no more interest in Palestine than you have in the plight of Tibet and the Dalai Lama or the Tamil situation in Sri Lanka!
Obama thus has to manoeuvre around the minefields in a Machiavellian way to achieve the goal of a 2-State solution. And you should stop justifying violence by taking this ‘whole world is against us in conspiracy’ stance and support him openly. Unless of course you have a better, workable and practical solution at hand that will achieve lasting peace.
It would do us all to well to remember that the Arabs (who would have support from most countries outside the USA, UK, France and European block) with all their zillions of oil $, have shown little initiative in carrying through concerted efforts at the United Nations to compel USA in particular, to enforce the UN resolutions against Israel.
War and terrorism is not all about planes, guns, bullets, grenades, tanks and rockets; the right strategy and peaceful but persistent negotiations can achieve wonders. Ghandhi showed us all the way!!
Dear Tun,
I have different views on what you said. What Obama is doing is very clever. America is giving annually usd 4 billions of aid to Israel and usd 1 billion of aid to egypt since anuar Sadad signed peace treaty with Israel in 1970. There are approximately 3 million jews in the United States and they control the economy. They hold the american purse string, so to speak. They are the american elite. Obama would be committing political suicide should he not support Israel. The weight of jewish wealth in america would be brought to bear on Obama. The muslims can consider themselves lucky Obama wants to engage them. The jews give aid to israel through the american government, a clever camoflage. Most israel weapons are given free by america, F16, apache helicopters, AWAC and so on.
European did not take arab land and give to israel. Not that simple. Palestine is considered biblical home by the jews, the home of nabi ibrahim, the father of jew and arab. Hitler killed 6 million jews in europe during world war 2. The fear and trauma caused by Hitler made the jews to look for their home land. Logically palestine was the place. Many of them made their way to palestine. They bought lands from arab absentee landlords. They were barren desert lands. The arab absentee lamd lords were happy to sell. The problem was with the surrounding poor arabs who dislikes the jewish newcomers. The jews came in peace but the indigenious arabs were hostile. They fought the first arab israel war in 1948 to a stalemate. It goes to show that the jews meant no harm. The second war was fought in 1956. Israel made the biggest gain in 1967 when the whole senile peninsula together with 5 egyptian generals were captured by Israel. The jews are stingy hateful race, calculative. That is why Hitler killed jews, the mentally sick and the deforms. The arabs are belligerant and quarrelsome. They will never make peace.
There are now 200000 arabs among one million jews in israel. The arabs are the indigenious and poor.
Muslims are not arabs and not racist. The arabs and jews should coexist. They are cousins. For the arabs to succeed they should follow the quran and sunnah Rasullullah. This may sound foundamentalist and preposterous to the infidels and munafik, wallahwaallam.
amin tan
Well argued as usual Sir. The continued pro-Isreali stance of the new President, I believe, is not going to wane what with a Jew, Rahm Emanuel, acting as his Chief of Staff. In the final analysis the looming threat posed by Iran’s nuclear program should provide some form of bargaining chip should peace negotiation be resumed.
Assalamualaikum Tun,
First and foremost thank you for bringing up this article about Obama’s speech Chairo. I was waiting for this article so that I can comment on it.
Indeed, Obama is the first US president to bring about such a massive change from previous Presidents. In the beginning of his speech, he even said “assalamualaikum”, the greeting one muslim say to another. I was taken aback by this, and don’t know whether I should reply back or not. When he spoke about the prophet Muhammad, he included the saying “peace be upon him”.In his speech he acknowledged about the contribution made by Islamic scholars. He acknowledged that it was Muslim civilization that brought about the Renaissance in Europe and an end to the dark ages. He acknowledged it was a Muslim country, Morocco that first recognized the United States. He talks about implementing “zakat” in the United States. He believed that Muslim countries can progress citing Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) as an example.
Two main issues he highlighted was one, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and two, the nuclear issue with Iran.
On the Palastinian-Israeli conflict, he proposed two things which are in direct conflict against Israel standing which is one, a two nation existing side by side which is Palastine and Israel and two, the immediate stop to settlements by Israel. This, I think is so far different from other past US President’s policy.
On the Palestinian side, he asks that Hamas stop its attacks on Israel and instead work together with the Palestinian people to build the Palestinian state.
As Tun has rightly pointed out, the Palestinians have tried conventional means and still to no avail. For the Palestinians, they have only two options, to accept or reject. To reject would mean they maintain their current strategy of sending rockets and bombers to Israel. The Israel on their part will retaliate with tanks, fighter planes, chemical weapons. In the mean time, Israel will continue building new settlements at the expense of Palestinian land. The important question is, has this strategy been effective for Palestine? The Palestinians are simply too weak to fight Israel.
Now, the second option is to accept the offer. This will put tremendous pressure on Israel to stop building new settlements. Not only that, Israel also has to recognize Palestine as a state. Plus, the US will ensure that the embargo on important medical supplies and food be Palestine be lifted. This option gives Hamas and Fatah to work together with the Palestinian people to help rebuild their nation and be a strong nation. I think that is what Hamas and Fatah be doing now. Develop your country first. Be focus. You don’t have time to attack when you are concentrating on developing the country. Becoming a nation, does give certain privileges. The right to give food, jobs and houses to its people and of course the right to defend. If they do accept this offer, the impact would be Israel cannot 1) build new settlements 2) attack Palestine. The price to pay for this is not to attack Israel.
Now, I know Israel is an illegal state but we must also understand that Palestine now is just simply too weak to fight Israel.And the Muslim countries are simply not united to help Palestine. To see that a US President who is a christian trying to help the Palestinian more than any Muslim country has ever done is something Muslim countries should ponder. There is a saying that its ok we move back 2 steps backwards as long as we can move 10 steps forward in the future. Look back in the the history of Islam, how the Hijrah happened.
I know I am not a Palestine and therefore I have no right to say to Palestine to take this offer or not. But think wisely. Look at the overall picture.
As for the Iranian issue, the Iranians must understand that this US President is talking about changes. He had said that he is offering his hand in friendship if the Iranians unclench its fist and offer their friendship too. For Obama’s stand on this, back in the states, he has receive many critical views be it from the Republicans and Democrats alike. Obama wants to say to his people that they can be friends with the Iranians. Whenever, Iran fight back, and go with the down US slogans, it will only weaken Obama political standing in the US and strengthen Iran’s true enemies the neocons. I’m sure the neocons are just waiting to tell Obama “we told you so, you just cannot talk or make peace with Iranians”.
Now, the world rules are being changed once more. It remains to be seen how Muslims around the world will react. I only pray that the Muslims will think using their head and wisdom and not follow their emotions.
Assalamualaikum Tun,
Beautifully composed and well written. Even a fool is able to understand and see the truth, but some learned fools just do not want to admit the truth, be it Israelis, Americans, Arabs or even those at the United Nations.
Agreed that United States is the proxy of the jews. Nobody can deny this fact. In fact Obama is right now paying a price for his victory to the White House. If he over-react as you said he is gonna be a one-term president. Very sure, deep in his heart he may not be satisfied with himself on solving the Middle East problem, but he only has limited power.
His speech in Egypt clearly enumerate that Palestine must compromise and be willing to accept changes imposed on them but what about Israel?
“May Allah blessings be always with us.” (Not US or USA).
Juno.
Assalam alaikum
YABhg Tun and all chedet fellows.
Firstly I immenseley agree all the given points above. Israel was the “golden son” of many western and europe nations. Israel always put Muslims nations in torn in two. And the U.S then cover them.
The President of the United States whether white or black, the United States policy will never do good things of deeds with Islamic country. The Israel play vital role on this. They sometimes play invisible hand and sometimes invisible shoulder. While the president totally keep mum albeit bubbling in the stage of speech.
Israel, was the minority community in the United states. They just around 6 percent compare to other community. But they play vital role in White House administration. Their lobbyist able to succumb those United States president disobey them when they ask for something.
John F Kennedy, the late U.S President had been shot. But untill now it is not revealed though the U.S possessed FBI, CIA, NSA, and so forth. From the history, there were disonance between John F Kennedy with the Israel state government, that is regarding with nuclear matters. During this wrangled, John F Kenneddy gun down by unidentified person. Was this “Israel Job?”
President Obama need internal and external miracle to shut up the Israel lobbyist in the capitol and the white house. If other nations leader speak out and support President Obama plants, Obama would be the first President of the United States succeed in handling the long term Arab-Israel matters. So far only President Mahmoud Ahmadineejad of Iran and President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela vocally indemnify any U.S and Israel actions which opposed the world peace.
If all the OIC leaders do the same, it can balancing the U.S policy makers. U.S need to remember that Isreal is just one sole country. Islam country is more than one but not really in unity. If Islam nations stand together, Israel need to pay back its sin.
After I finnished read Mr Samuel P Huntington’s “The clash of civilazation,” I already understand why he said that the American style and culture already false or in other words “false nations.” So as to Mr Jospeh Stiglitz words, American is under perils due to these false.
United States no more longer become the safe state for democracy. Democracy there is nearly die. Its politicus, many of them opportunist and the Israel backing up them.
It is a good response to what is stated in newly appointed president of United States of America, Obama…I hope that the international peoples will read this articles and make a drastic action to ensure the destiny of the Palestinians is defended…America should put a closer look to deal with this crisis as it is getting worse…America could not afford to side Israeli and support them as whatever the crime they did to the Palestinians…America and Western countries should not be bias and judgemental to Palestinians simply bcoz they are trying to stand their right…where are those Human right principles that they always taked about for all this while…every decision made affecting the life of the innocent Palestinians…WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
Additional to my comment earlier today, below is the article from BBC News today:
US seeks immediate Mid-East talks
George Mitchell is on his way to Israel, the Palestinian territories and Jordan.
President Obama’s special envoy to the Middle East, George Mitchell, has said that the US wants immediate talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
He was speaking at al donors’ conference in Oslo aimed at providing support for the Palestinian Authority.
He said it was important to build up Palestinian institutions so that an independent and viable Palestinian state could soon be in place.
Mr Mitchell has said that President Obama has made clear to his administration that a two-state solution is the only viable one.
The president repeated his call for a two-state solution and a halt to Jewish settlement activity during a visit to Germany and Egypt last week.
Norway’s Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere said recent political uncertainty over the future of a Middle East peace deal had had a negative impact on fund-raising efforts for the Palestinians.
A World Bank report on the Palestinian economy that was released at the donor meeting said foreign support remained “indispensable” for the provision of basic services in the Palestinian territories.
On Sunday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he would make a major speech on peace and security issues later this month. He has also said he is ready to meet Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and pursue a three-track peace process focussing on economic, security and political issues.
Mr Abbas has said renewed negotiations would be pointless unless Mr Netanyahu first endorsed the notion of Palestinian statehood and halted the expansion of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank.
Hello from America, and thank you for a detailed elucidation of why the US needs to reign in Israel. I believe that there are paths to doing this without abandoning Israel or condoning Palestinian and Israeli violence. Obama has started down that path and is supported by many who believe that injustices done to Palestine have surpassed what can be justified. But the blame game must be tamped down if any change is to come, if a two state solution can be supported. I believe that the voice of the moderate, rational Muslim world (and by that I really mean all Muslims worldwide) must be loud and clear, speaking for conciliation by both sides. The West will hear this voice – indeed, hears it now on the internet and in a greater grass-roots support for Palestine. It is via the vox populi that change will come. We cannot depend on governments anywhere to reconcile when their first thoughts are inevitably of re-election. The electorate must become educated. G. Bush cultivated eight years of fear based thinking. Cheney continues that manipulation today. Osama bin Laden does precisely the same thing.
It is a slow process, that of education. It means opening the doors and windows onto different views of history (and this is why it is so important for the West to consider particularly your points #8-13) and letting go of the need for one’s personal bias to be “right”. Your blog is enormously helpful to me personally. I am forwarding it on to people in my small community who are looking and listening for the voice of educated, moderate Muslims. They don’t hear it on mainstream American media. Thank you for providing an open window for them to look through.
Assalamualaikum Dearest Tun,
Thanks for bringing this up. I was reading about President Obama’s speech yesterday when I came across numerous blogs saying that the speech was an outrage against the world and that the historical facts that President Obama stated about the Muslim’s contributions to the modern world (magnetic compass, pen, Algebra etc) were wrong.
I am not a historian, which is why I won’t touch on the historical facts’ accuracy. However, I was surprised at the animosity coming from the commentors of those blogs preaching hatred towards Muslims.
I was speechless and I couldn’t sleep at all last night.
What has brought on such animosity towards a religion that these people are thought to hate Islam from the young age. Maybe I am naive but I do believe part of the blame comes from the Muslims themselves. And I pray that the Muslims can rise above this hatred and become stronger. Please pray together with me because I don’t want my children to grow up being hated for practicing the correct way of life.
Wassalam.
hi just testing if this work
How long you think the fight should continue? Do you not think what happen in Sri lanka is bound to happen sooner or later to the palestians. So do you have a plan for the palestians to win the war? have you ever lived in palestian before??
So pls just don’t talk for the sake of talking..Don;t compare mouse and human!!!…Sad to say..but its people like you that induce more damage.. all you said was war can only be resolve with another war.. Great observation ..but Do you remember when Japan attached Nanjing,China.. I wonder what did china to resolve the situation.
If great person like you not able to see and find a resolution outside the box then i don;t blame those poor palestians..Well done blogging
Sir
I like your “lets say no to war” mantra and then in another breath, I am against violence BUT “an eye for an eye” whisper …
What Israel is doing is wrong…but I dont see the Muslim world totally united to help the Palestinian cause peacefully.
You sir could have championed the whole negotiation from a Muslim perspective – you who led a democratic liberal Islamic country could have worked with the world powers (France, US, UK) to champion the cause…but did not.
Did nothing…but now want to criticise those who have been trying to find some middle ground.
Whats your excuse..?
(Ravi)
Tun,
Saya mahu dengar apa reaksi dari Anwar si pejuang demokrasi dan kebebasan rakyat tentang ucapan ini. Juga pemimpin pembangkang yg lain. Tidak adakah wartawan yg mahu bertanya soalan kepada mereka?
Hentikan peperangan…. Benci peperangan…
Salam Tun,
Though I am a common citizen, I can sense that the speech was well crafted. However good the speech is, if it cannot return the Palestinians right, it is still a bad speech.
In simple term, still-life painting of a sour apple that looks sweet, will not turn the sour apple sweet.
1) Obama is another believer of CIA fabrication of 911. He believed in the controlled demolition crumbled of WTC!
http://www.archive.org/details/911revisited
Not only that, he believed the planned collapse of north tower which was not hit by any aircraft. When do they manage to plant the explosives? Is it minutes during the havoc of the attack? It is stupid to believe.
I am more inclined to favor that 911 as an insider
YABhg Tun,
Telling the Palestinians to stop terrorism while not telling the other party, Israel, to do likewise is like telling a rape victim not to struggle,to keep still and quiet.
Obviously, the Palestinians are paying big time for someone else’s sins.
Statement 18 – specially so very, very true…
Assalamu ‘alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh!
Dear Tun
I have read Obama’s book “The Audacity of Hope”. Alas his book seemed for read only as regrettably in respect of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict he is just as hopeless as any white American Presidents.
Obama has no big heart after all, a meaningless black in the American presidential history, make the black American no hope for world apiration as world leader whoever is the next black American President.
Thank you
Alhaj
Salam,
Adakah Presiden Obama sama dengan sifat yang diwarisi oleh Presiden2 sebelum ini?
Kalau dari AS tu rasanya siapa pun sama je kan.
Jadi berhati-hatilah.
http://www.zoompanas2.com
Saya sungguh bangga ada suara pemimpin Malaysia berani menyatakan yang benar. Palestin tidak boleh membayar hutang Eropa kepada YAHUDI. Siapa berhutang mesti membayar sendiri hutangnya. Obama mesti berani menyatakan yang benar, kalau dia hendak diterima dan diakui sebagai pemimpin dunia. Tahniah, Y Bhg Tun. Teruskanlah perjuangan! US dan Eropa hendaklah memberi sebahagian dari negara mereka untuk Israel.
Betul cakap Tun. Alangkah baiknya jika Obama bacakan blog ini sekarang.
Tun memang pejuang Islam sejati.
Assalamualaikum Tun,
Could’nt have said it better. To the Americans you all are actualy hte slaves of the jews.What a pitty.
Dear Tun, your’re writting the fact. American president, can’t ignore the fact, they are the proxies of jews. Palestinians state will not exist forever, if American and the state of America still around.
WELL SAID TUN, BUT I AM A BIT DISAPPOINTED TUN, BECAUSE THERE IS SOME OF THE OPPOSITION LEADERS WHO LOVES JEW SO MUCH, ACCORDING TO THEM, JEW IS DIFFERENT FROM ZIONIST! AND THE WORST PART IS THEIR FOLLOWER BELIEVES WHATEVER TOLD TO THEM BY THEIR PRO YAHUDI LEADERS!
TAHNK YOU FOR ALWAYS BEING THERE FOR THE MUSLIM AROUND THE WORLD RUN! TRULY, YOU ARE THE TRUE ISLAMIC HERO! UNLIKE OTHERS WHO ARE VERY CLOSE TO AMERICA AND WILL SELL THIS BELOVED COUNTRY JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR DREAMS ARE FULFILLED!
HIDUP TUN DR MAHATHIR!
http://parpukari.blogspot.com
AYAHANDA RAKYAT TUN
IZINKAN,
THANK YOU FOR STRIPPING THE AMERICAN’S STATUE OF LIBERTY NAKED FOR THE WHOLE ‘BLIND’ WORLD TO SEE….
THAT’S OUR AYAHANDA RAKYAT TUN… BOLD AND BEAUTIFUL
AYAHANDA TUN BOLEH, ANAKANDA RAKYAT JUGA BOLEH.
1 MALAYSIA DENGAN WAWASAN 2020 NYA LAGI BOLEH!
ALFATIHAH, AMIN.
Dear tun
there you go demonising this president of united states. he has chided israel, hamas, and other perpatrators of using violence. he has committed to a two state solution. why is there no mention of this in your blog
i think you need to put your hatred of things singaporean, jew, malaysia having a strong opposition before you comment on a subject.
What bigotry, half truths and deformation of history. I could write pages and pages about these views some people unfortunately seem to be brainwashed with, but what use? People believe what they want to believe and what fits into their agenda. It’s just interesting to see the amount of posts on this blog dedicated to the middle eastern conflict, while Malaysia has absolutely no geographic, economic nor other interest in this region. You might argue that it is the noble purpose of trying to end human suffering, and i can only encourage that. It just strikes me that there is no word about the humanitarian crisis in Sri Lanka, Darfur/Sudan, Swat Valley/Pakistan, Somalia, etc where a far greater number of humans are suffering and dying. But of course, it has nothing to do with religiously induced anti-semitism, has it?
Just for the record and before somebody accuses me for being partial again: I am neither American nor Jew nor ex-colonist nor following any religious ideology. Just an impartial observer with no stakes on either side.
Peace!
Dear Tun Dr M,
I am sure you would agree that President Obama is facing acid-test in his career as the President of USA. He has to tackle with care and diligence the trade, finance and security.
The previous presidents had mainly the interest of US and its allies to protect and control.
However, Obama , apart from convincing the Majority white that deserve their support, mainly has more sensitive tasks to accomplish (As follows)
Can Obama meet the expectations of the world
It has been more than 1 month since Obama, an African-American, was elected as the 44th President of United States of America, Most of the world congratulated Obama for being elected to that post. A lot of anti USA countries now would want to reestablish ties with the USA.The first African American to lead America for the next 4 years. The dream of the late Martin Luther King finally fulfilled. Yes, indeed, it is a dream come true. Just about 10 years back, it would have been thought as impossible that an African American to become The President of The United States.
During the Presidential Election, race and skin color took the back seat. Your charm, vigor, calm, intelligence and spontaneous speech (and actions) not only attracted the majority of the US citizens but also of millions from outside the rest of the world.
However, Obama
salam tun
They cannot persuade Hamas to stop the ‘terrorist’ attacks instead of the Israeli has given the full licence to defend their people and land by using terrorist attacks. I think they should learn General Aggression Model and learn why a person commit such aggression as response to his surroundings.
yet it is the fact:America is a proxy of Israeli
TDM,
Bush have done so much damage in US international relations, and Obama is trying to undo that. Obama may not succeed if the Jew lobbyists are not supportive to Obama’s agenda.
http://www.jurublog.blogspot.com
YBhg Tun,
You are right on the dot again…
Salam Tun and fellow friends,
Very interesting piece of article to read and ponder. AS OURSERLVES A QUESTION, WHAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE?
For some, it might takes more time than others to digest and accept the truth and facts. For some other, might never believe in what you have stated. While the rest might be confused and do not know what to believe.
What Mr Obama can do if he wants to be the US President more than one term? He has answered this question in his Cairo’s speech – considering the elites groups he has to specially take into consideration.
The Americans at large might not agree with your statement “The Americans have become the proxy of the Jews”. This is expected after many years of being nurtured and fertilised by the facts of the opposite. Pity those innocent Americans who are really good and nice people but programmed with “bad chips”. I must say, the Americans at large are not to be blamed. They can vote another “Obama” yet the Israel-Palestian conflicts remain unchanged. One thing they can do is to continuously show their disagreement. It might takes longer time than any of us can think of.
Israeli leaders know what they are doing…or better word, stealing. Again, those who suffered the lost of their loved ones might emotionally support any acts by their leaders. Is anyone wonder what they will do after hundreds of years in misery? (to point finger to anyone will not help to improve the situation).
Palestians leaders have no power at all. The long and tired battles for more than hundred years is the evidence. They know they are being robbed and trying to do utmost to protect their homeland.
For all the readers:
Imagine you have a house. A stranger need a shelter and you let him to stay in your house. Over the years, he builds his own family. He has a super power friend whose loyalty is undiminished, support him to go beyond any laws of the world you can named. He claimed to have right in your very own house. Is this sounds right to you?
THIS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE. GET IT RIGHT!
Salam to Tun and family.
Well said Tun. The Americans are in denial or blatenly ignorant thinking that they have a say in choosing the govt. They have bought into the idea of “Democracy” … which fine prints spells “Jewsocracy”.
Since the majority of America are still “country folks” who don’t care and don’t vote. They’ll continue to be the tools of Israel.
salam,